tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post1738226736007700232..comments2024-03-24T00:19:48.310-07:00Comments on Delta Vector: Game Design #50: Focussed Fluff, Generic Fluff & the Shiny FactorevilleMonkeighhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-39179215873262195532015-08-19T14:23:06.956-07:002015-08-19T14:23:06.956-07:00As they sell small plastic clix ships for $65 a mo...As they sell small plastic clix ships for $65 a model ($80 for new star destroyer?), I don't have any thoughts about them at all. I think the 3 ship starter box which is a "bargain" sets you back $150. <br /><br />Given this is anywhere from 300% to 1000% more than metal GZG or huge resin Spartan ships, don't hold your breath waiting for a review.<br /><br />(FYI, $80AUD is 40 pounds... for a single plastic ship....)<br /><br />That said, the locals seem to enjoy them, and they can hardly be worse than the bland, hit boxy, WW2-in-space that is every other spaceship game on the market.evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-78523837321392495652015-08-19T09:01:32.699-07:002015-08-19T09:01:32.699-07:00Based on your thoughts about Warmachine I have oft...Based on your thoughts about Warmachine I have often wondered your opinion on a game like FFGs X-Wing or Armada? Blood and Spectacles Publishinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04553070461794152273noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-68766226066553089292015-08-11T00:16:09.832-07:002015-08-11T00:16:09.832-07:00Keep the world open - absolutely. Don't be obs...Keep the world open - absolutely. Don't be obsessed with mapping every location, and describing every event, giving players no room to "breathe."<br />i.e. saying definitiely there are 101 space marine chapters then going on to describe the colours, tactics, and history of every single one from conception to present day = no way to make up your own flavourful force.<br /><br />Pick a certain aspect of your universe. It provides a snapshot of your world while not waffling on trying to cover every aspect (see above) i.e. focus on Frostgrave the city keeps the fluff tight, while allowing us to assume most things we learn extrapolate to the wider world (i.e. magic is a big thing, mages come in schools, there was a "fall" where we lost knowledge from a elder race). <br /><br />Staying away from boring achetypes is good, but allowing your game to use available models is important<br /><br />Example: a modern pulp game where modern special forces and mercs with psychic powers battle aliens and mutants in the Chernobyl forbidden zone. Everything I described you could do in 15mm or 28mm right now, as well as being a Necromunda style wargame whilst avoiding copying any existing game ,<br /><br />evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-50422343272993690862015-08-10T23:39:44.609-07:002015-08-10T23:39:44.609-07:00I once read an interview with Rick Priestley on on...I once read an interview with Rick Priestley on one of the oldhammer blogs, think it was realm of chaos 80s, but not sure. There he stated that the original Rogue Trader was so open because it had to include every miniature that Citadel at that time produced. This gave way to such brilliantly craziness as the Jokaero (Judge Dredd Ape Gangs).<br /><br />Nowadays they just look what their fanbase would buy next and dish out another Space Marine Army.<br /><br />Even if the original Rogue Trader was born out of the necessity to include everything GW had at that time, this resulted in such incredibly great fluff. I still love the Genestealer Cults and have failed to see anything as cool as these Space Deep Ones anywhere (and I cannot forgive GW i"including" them in later Tyranid lists).<br /><br />So to get back to the discussion. One great rule of thumb for creating good fluff is a certain openess of your world, while the other is focussing on something not yet manufactured a dozen times but staying away from the boring archetypes. Agree?Fincas Khalmorilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05236426064810488093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-4393853267789673862015-08-10T07:24:33.873-07:002015-08-10T07:24:33.873-07:00I may just have to break down and give you a varia...<i>I may just have to break down and give you a variant that has some hard measurements for movement and weapon ranges. </i><br /><br />I'd like that. :-) But I do want to try the rules as written. And you're right - this <i>would</i> go perfectly with Warmachine. And I have a lot of their robots but sold off the rulebook ages ago. <br /><br />And just to bring this back on topic, at least a little -- the Rogue Planet artwork does a great job of evoking the fluff. And while the pages of fluff in the original 40k Rogue Trader added a lot of <i>detail</i> it was really the art that evoked it -- remember the picture of the Emperor as a dessicated near-corpse with all the tubes attached? <br /><br />I get annoyed with pages of fluff which end up just being another "heartbreaker" - just a re-tread of ideas other games have expressed. But good artwork -- man, that gets you invested in the game. I'll have to remember that if I ever publish my own ruleset.Nicholas Caldwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11750294903050480971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-62491949091381511632015-08-09T23:01:57.692-07:002015-08-09T23:01:57.692-07:00The GW world is smaller and poorer now, that's...The GW world is smaller and poorer now, that's for sure, as they narrow it down. It feels like the one sector of the Imperium IS the entire universe now, apart from some naughty Chaos hiding out in another dimension, and the odd other race (Ork, Eldar etc) drifting about on random planets. Even the stories simply focus on tiny sub-sections of the Imperium, i.e. perhaps the Inquisition is now 5 different factions and now each sub-faction must gets it's own fluff book...<br /><br />They're going back in history now, busily filling in all the possible narrative gaps players could have potentially been creative in, but the universe is neither expanding nor moving forward. evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-58344667940267404702015-08-09T22:32:30.427-07:002015-08-09T22:32:30.427-07:00Agree. I forgot 2000 AD. Mainly because this tongu...Agree. I forgot 2000 AD. Mainly because this tongue-in-cheek approach has long been left out of GWs worlds. Not for the better, if you ask me. I wonder how many players nowadays actually realise that the Imperium is a fscist society no better than the one in Judge Dredd... But even 2000ad lost this approach somewhere in the mid 90s.<br /><br />Freebooters Fate: i agree on both points. Still the sculpts are awesome and nearly on the level with Infinity, all models are multipart and they all include a scenic base. So in a way I feel like I have to defend them.<br /><br />What is definitely worth buying are their rulebooks. At least the German ones are very well written and actually quite funny and all the items in their shop to play certain scenarios.Fincas Khalmorilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05236426064810488093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-62051020921759864452015-08-09T19:50:22.824-07:002015-08-09T19:50:22.824-07:00"What your setting has no humans? then how do..."What your setting has no humans? then how do we relate to it? Standard fantasy tropes (elves / dwarves etc) have their place because they proved a short hand for the writer. But truly alien civilisations all need to be balanced against human norms so that we can understand them."<br /><br />I can't recall the name of it, but there was a sci fi book where the heroes were fighting these vicious, cunning enemies. Halfway through the book, I realised the enemies were humans and the heroes were a humanoid alien. <br /><br />A bit OT, but a cool switching of the PoV - I ASSUMED they were human, but on re-reading it there was truckloads of information which could have been interpreted otherswise...evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-53572975158285711742015-08-09T19:07:02.386-07:002015-08-09T19:07:02.386-07:00"The other thing, why there are so few origin..."The other thing, why there are so few original and new attempts, is that GW had covered nearly everything that was popular in fantasy (tolkien, moorcock) and sci fi (dune & star wars originally, later Alies/starship troopers (modern tyranids), terminator (necrons), anime (tau), etc.)"<br /><br />I find it ironic GW defends its "IP" so vigorously when it so obviously borrowed pretty much everything from other popular media. I'd be hard pressed to think of anything even remotely original they have ever done. I also think there is a strong grounding in the 2000AD comic universe for a lot of core concepts. But yes, they covered their bases pretty thoroughly.<br /><br />I also agree Infinity is pretty much the only IP flying the flag with decent fluff - anime inspired, perhaps, but still a distinct flavour of its own. <br /><br />I like the Freebooters idea, but not their prices (and the rules seemed overly complex). Have I done an article on "boutique" (aka closed, usually card centric and overpriced) rules yet? <br /><br />I think a lot of indie devs would like to put out their own fluff, but without impressive art/a model line that fits, it's unlikely anyone will care, no matter how clever it is. <br /><br />It's why I think we need to come up with new ways to use existing model lines - i.e. modern pulp is one I point out that has potential, as well as utilizing the prolific hard sci fi 15mm models in a different way (psychic powers, downloadable sleeve bodies, matrix , a X-COM or STALKER style game)<br /><br />I.e. sit down and look at modern PC games (and movies) and see what genres aren't well represented in gaming yet have minis already available.<br /><br /><br />evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-20070469120939278762015-08-09T17:13:26.459-07:002015-08-09T17:13:26.459-07:00'Ironic that you should use it as your example...<i>'Ironic that you should use it as your example, but I'd like a rules set I could use my Warmachine models for - as the official rules make it into a CCG more akin to MtG than a wargame.'</i><br /><br />That's what you need to be using Rogue Planet for! ;) I may just have to break down and give you a variant that has some hard measurements for movement and weapon ranges. You could even skip the Pawns and just give your Warcaster his own energy pool for hit points.<br /><br /><i>'but whats not to like about a steam powered robot with a gatling gun in one hand and a giant mace in the other?'</i><br /><br />Agreed!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12137613894805781835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-75046460840337790682015-08-09T15:59:12.547-07:002015-08-09T15:59:12.547-07:00Frostgrave was quite a thought provoking rulebook....Frostgrave was quite a thought provoking rulebook. It was very "instructive" from a game design standpoint, for me, anyway.<br /><br />(+) value of focussed fluff (cleverly aimed as you say)<br />(+) well-executed "shiny" rulebook<br />(+) mage-centric game with 'badass' mage (something lacking aside from Warmachine)<br />(+) well fleshed out campaign system<br />(+) magic centric play gives the "x factor"<br />(+) ability to re-purpose old minis<br /><br />(-) campaign enthusiastic but unbalanced<br />(-) didn't really add anything new with mechanics ...also, hitpoints :-/<br /><br />Ironic that you should use it as your example, but I'd like a rules set I could use my Warmachine models for - as the official rules make it into a CCG more akin to MtG than a wargame. Many dislike the models (the prices are a bit disproportionate) but whats not to like about a steam powered robot with a gatling gun in one hand and a giant mace in the other? evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-45010610202079939772015-08-09T08:40:42.210-07:002015-08-09T08:40:42.210-07:00From a fluff standpoint, what Frostgrave did with ...From a <b>fluff</b> standpoint, what Frostgrave did with the 'focussed setting' meets 'nostalgia of Mordheim' was really clever. It was just close enough [while at the same time being open enough] to pull in that audience that's been wanting a replacement for a really long while without creating a 'rip-off' backlash. <br /><br />Speaking about settings, I believe that for indie designers there is another subtle in-between category that combines the shiny factor with the generic: implied setting<b>s</b> [with an emphasis on the 's']. I think that players approaching an open indie game system are looking for things that fit their miniature line/world without having other items that are unacceptable in it. <br /><br />With some work, I think it's possible to cater to varying tastes if you place specific rules or references in the system without breaking the illusion of openness. For example, a wizard controlling a construct wouldn't be out of place in D&D, BUT with a few carefully placed words or references, you can help a Warmachine player to see how it could be a Warcaster and Jack combo. Moreover, you can even add rules that cater to [and reinforce] that setting without breaking the seemingly generic nature of the wizard/construct. <br /><br />On a related note, I can't wait to see what you think of my shiny meets focused setting game that I'm working on! ;)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12137613894805781835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-41872532428214250622015-08-09T00:05:38.656-07:002015-08-09T00:05:38.656-07:00So true. Apart from infinity, there is not much on...So true. Apart from infinity, there is not much on the market with focussed fluff at the moment.<br /><br />Actually the only games which are not wh/40k rippffs I can think of right now are licensed from literature and films (xwing, aliens vs predator, anything zombie-ish, Mars Attacks, until recently LotR).<br /><br />I would go so far calling games like Warzone already original, even if they take a lot of "inspiration" from 40k.<br /><br />One of the reasons I think is that to appeal to customers it is helpful if those customers can use at least part of their collection (painting takes time and I dont want to start from zero again) or if they understand part of the fluff without much explaining. Both is probably teasier if you "orient" yourself at GWs minis and their fluff (Confrontation, Kings of War, Warpath are good examples as well as all those companies selling "space knights" and models which look suspiciously similar to the races of GWs Old World).<br /><br />The other thing, why there are so few original and new attempts, is that GW had covered nearly everything that was popular in fantasy (tolkien, moorcock) and sci fi (dune & star wars originally, later Alies/starship troopers (modern tyranids), terminator (necrons), anime (tau), etc.) <br /><br />The third point you rightly stressed,is the superiority and openness of the old Rogue Trader Universe to the Grimdark Stupidity we nowadays have to cope with, and I would add that the evolution of 40k and warhammer shows pretty good how anything that was understandable with basic media knowledge of scifi and fantasy was kicked out successively. <br /><br />Think of Fimirs and Genestealer Cults or Squats and Chaos Dwarfs on the one hand. On the other hand, GW introduced such grimdark "masterpieces" like the Vampires of the Old World and the DARK Eldar.<br /><br />So to sum up this rather long answer, Id say that the boring and ripped off fluff is based on the same assumption that makes hollywood movies often so boring and usually ripoffs or sequels to already established films: risk minimising by limiting the plot and the camera to what the audience is already used to. Innovation bears a high risk of failure.<br /><br />Thats one reason why we see innovation in tabletop fluff mainly from the big players, who can and must do it to reach new audiences, but then also from very small producers who found a niche. <br /><br />A good example of the latter and for what you called focussed fluff is the German fantasy pirate game Freebooters Fate. Though I dislike their boutique prices, the fluff is very nicely written. A lot of Monkey Islands and Pirates of the Caribbean in it and references to pop-culture while they still have NOT tried the easy way other competitors in that niche do and simply convert all fantasy races to pirates. Instead we have the Imperial Armada (Spanish/Portuguese), Goblins with all kind of funky gadgets, which are the escpaed pets/slaves of the Armadas nobles, an Assassin Cult, a Trade Union, a Voodoo Cult, and Amazons living in the jungle. <br /><br />All is very well integrated into the setting (carribean) and assissted by a large number of models to build scenarios from which further enhance the fluff (zombie octopusses!!! Dodos etc.). I actually have quite a lot of their stuff, though I prefer to use it with other rulesets, but I liked the fluff so much that i simply needed to have their books and models. I think it was exactly this concentration on one aspect which made me like it. I just never had thought about it.Fincas Khalmorilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05236426064810488093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-48580676108014110202015-08-08T23:17:42.055-07:002015-08-08T23:17:42.055-07:00Its a fine line in RPGs between writing enough flu...Its a fine line in RPGs between writing enough fluff to inspire but not so much as to bore. Art as you observe is key. After all a picture is worth a 1,000 words and you can say a lot with a picture that would take much longer to say in text.<br /><br />Lets imagine a market scene. I could write about the stalls, what they sell, how they are arranged, how the stall holders dress and call out to potential customers. I could write about the crowds or potential buyers, the buying customs and rituals. Or about the how the market is policed. Or I could do that with a single image which would show styles of dress, body language, a shady agent lurking in the background and a young pickpocket trying to make his mark.<br /><br />The truth is you need both. Text can give a depth and a sense of time that a still image cannot. But that picture tells you more in a glance than several pages of text about style and presentation.<br /><br />Its actually very difficult write truly novel settings / factions. I have been writing my own game (don't we all), its set in a universe that is sci-fi post-golden age. I have a number of factions... I could have based these on historical settings as games (like Fading Suns have done), but instead I tried to make them truly different and unique. At which point you find your setting in need of much more description because there are no assumptions and associations for people to make (look at the game Talislanta to see this in action). Basically you need a point of commonality with our world for players to identify with.<br /><br />What your setting has no humans? then how do we relate to it? Standard fantasy tropes (elves / dwarves etc) have their place because they proved a short hand for the writer. But truly alien civilisations all need to be balanced against human norms so that we can understand them.FilmExilehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935064846182355579noreply@blogger.com