tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post3094781357388204709..comments2024-03-24T00:19:48.310-07:00Comments on Delta Vector: Game Design #40: Avoiding the Scrum in the Middle - Maneuver and Spacing UnitsevilleMonkeighhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-45366661218160452142015-04-17T13:34:31.617-07:002015-04-17T13:34:31.617-07:00Plus, I have a soft spot for his very "Britis...Plus, I have a soft spot for his very "British" style and the way he writes a rulebook. Blood and Spectacles Publishinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04553070461794152273noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-63975392348752317722015-04-16T00:25:51.560-07:002015-04-16T00:25:51.560-07:00I find that rule seldom gets used unless there is ...I find that rule seldom gets used unless there is a strong reason too i.e. it's possible knock out weapons one side of a ship or shields are directional.<br /><br />I'd tend towards just giving weapons very wide firing arcs as a nod to roll/pitch/yaw, rather than tracking which side of the ship is up/down.evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-12019576559708989762015-04-16T00:14:59.705-07:002015-04-16T00:14:59.705-07:00Some capital ship rules also allow rolling a ship ...Some capital ship rules also allow rolling a ship 180 degrees to flip port/starboard weapons, armor, and maneuvering thrusters, as a nod to 3D in an otherwise flat game.Jeff Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02505316906423031421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-75064524375996724052015-04-15T18:33:22.073-07:002015-04-15T18:33:22.073-07:00This is true but I am going to be charitable and s...This is true but I am going to be charitable and say he's being realistic about what will sell to that same market. We've had that talk before.<br /><br />And well, the man wrote Rogue Trader, Necromunda and Warmaster. <br />All his future creative output could say "FIVECORE SUCKS" on every page and I'd still give him the benefit of the doubt ;)Weaselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05873440251698488032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-88388708219885366812015-04-15T18:23:36.392-07:002015-04-15T18:23:36.392-07:00Although Rick Priestley has only ever made 40K clo...Although Rick Priestley has only ever made 40K clones since he left, so I don't know how they suppressed his creativity.<br /><br />I actually chuckled when he got excited about his new Warlord game (something Antares?) where he was "we use d10 - we're so excited about the possibilities!")<br /><br />The d10 may have been cutting edge back in the early 90s, but now....evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-62339425769171868102015-04-15T18:20:40.479-07:002015-04-15T18:20:40.479-07:00Yeah, Im sure they wanted to do something more wit...Yeah, Im sure they wanted to do something more with the system.<br /><br />Heck, look at some of the things Rick Priestley has said in recent years. Weaselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05873440251698488032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-32425676878569919322015-04-15T18:18:51.182-07:002015-04-15T18:18:51.182-07:00Yes. Remember when a bunch of 40K devs left GW? An...Yes. Remember when a bunch of 40K devs left GW? Andy Chambers among them? Amongst the rumours was that there was "creative differences" i.e. some including Andy Chambers wanted to (sensibly) streamline 40K and alter the basic mechanics. I read somewhere he said Starship Troopers was the direction he wanted 40K to go.evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-47621531430223564222015-04-15T17:02:27.992-07:002015-04-15T17:02:27.992-07:00Wasn't it written by Andy Chambers or am I mak...Wasn't it written by Andy Chambers or am I making things up again?Weaselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05873440251698488032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-42184644689845814682015-04-15T17:00:21.052-07:002015-04-15T17:00:21.052-07:00Yeah - apparently Starship Troopers was the direct...Yeah - apparently Starship Troopers was the direction some in GW had wanted 40K to go. It would have worked better for the platoon+ game that 40K became. Had a few interesting evolutions (rather then revolutions) in gameplay. evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-4571345335374599242015-04-15T16:52:19.934-07:002015-04-15T16:52:19.934-07:00I don't think I'd agree with 'never.&#...I don't think I'd agree with 'never.' Which is why the notion of using three models to represent one ship intrigues me, is that without exploring the concept further it seems like it would actually reduce complexity.Nurglitchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03333941626425462180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-14213245758449188422015-04-15T16:51:11.963-07:002015-04-15T16:51:11.963-07:00Andy Chamber's original Star Troopers rules di...Andy Chamber's original Star Troopers rules did this.Nurglitchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03333941626425462180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-75308996838363792242015-04-15T15:25:37.168-07:002015-04-15T15:25:37.168-07:00Interesting in theory, but violates one of my Prim...Interesting in theory, but violates one of my Prime Directives of space games<br /><br />#1. NEVER use 3D. The complexity tradeoff is NEVER worth it. :-)evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-550142444848726852015-04-15T13:10:14.115-07:002015-04-15T13:10:14.115-07:00My home-brew takes several of these points into ac...My home-brew takes several of these points into account. Interesting though about MGs as AoE weapons. It would be interesting, and probably more realistic to require rifle/MG hits to be allocated to teams under a template rather than to a specific platoon... may have to try this...Retrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02453452754260568196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-41853871418903116782015-04-15T10:05:16.553-07:002015-04-15T10:05:16.553-07:00Phil Barker's rule of thumb was always that ar...Phil Barker's rule of thumb was always that armies should only take up 2/3rds of the table if stretched out end-to-end, in order to provide manoeuvre space (particularly if you needed several historically-accurate lines). Sadly of course, up until c. 1900, the scrum in the middle is exactly what most battles were, failing a lethal flanking action which is no fun for the player on the receiving end.A-Historianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10380376544300664923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-73675101905506254592015-04-15T07:51:09.073-07:002015-04-15T07:51:09.073-07:00In addition, now that I think about it, you could ...In addition, now that I think about it, you could use three models to represent one ship, with each travelling along an axis. Nurglitchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03333941626425462180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-38239520411466732442015-04-15T06:34:44.035-07:002015-04-15T06:34:44.035-07:00It's a good point. You could, for example, rep...It's a good point. You could, for example, represent 3D space by letting ships 'skip' to a new position, or sacrifice distance/speed moving in a particular vector to avoid obstacles. Nurglitchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03333941626425462180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-7320429223008832202015-04-14T22:55:18.990-07:002015-04-14T22:55:18.990-07:00Weirdly enough the last place I saw it was Warmach...Weirdly enough the last place I saw it was Warmachine. Some of the steam golems (jacks) are equipped with gatling cannon. You could place a bunch of linked blast markers on the table and anyone in it/crossing it had to dice to be hit. It was very interesting how they could be used as an area denial weapon to "funnel" enemy troops. evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-67257803863328168702015-04-14T22:31:55.276-07:002015-04-14T22:31:55.276-07:003D is complex if you use altitude. I mentioned 3D,...3D is complex if you use altitude. I mentioned 3D, not to play it, but to keep it in mind as 3D adds more tactical options.<br />Most of existing games end up as a naval battle in space because the game looks like 2D, so we play it 2D. While you shoot 2 points in a plane, you may want to include up and bottom points. It may not add additional difficulties, just include a new shooting segment.<br /><br />Terrain should be included, I am 100% for it. You may also include "neutral ships" in addition to standard asteroids. Also a wreck in space is a big problem and may trigger strategy to screen a retreating force.<br /><br />I am holding buying space ships since you started that topic last week. FFG Star Wars or other have not interested me so far. It seems you are going toward a great direction, keep it up!cedrichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09567465798644856588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-65137907291864083692015-04-14T22:21:14.774-07:002015-04-14T22:21:14.774-07:00Very few games tend to. The old Vor game from FASA...Very few games tend to. The old Vor game from FASA did it for machine guns and it always left an impact (along with the machine guns being extremely powerful in that game) that was bigger than just getting more attack dice.<br /><br />Besides, area of effect templates give you another lever you can toggle to create game effects :)Weaselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05873440251698488032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-34810833850012427032015-04-14T22:16:25.513-07:002015-04-14T22:16:25.513-07:00"If I may advertise, most weapons in StarStri..."If I may advertise, most weapons in StarStrike will be area of effect which should solve some of the problem :-)"<br /><br />I'm surprised more games don't do this. I mean, missile fire of any sort tends to make units scatter. A LMG acts as a AoE weapon, and artillery also forces units to spread out. You always read where "the troops were all bunched up so the slaughter was horrific" in response to both artillery and automatic weapon fire, but rules seldom penalise this bunching (or make it mandatory i.e. 1" cohesion range between minis)evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-27396928917069322842015-04-14T21:48:46.553-07:002015-04-14T21:48:46.553-07:00SPACE
I'm dead against 3D space as:
(a) the c...SPACE <br />I'm dead against 3D space as:<br />(a) the complexity is not worth it<br />(b) most fight are between two points in a plane<br />(c) theres not gravity/energy management so not important<br />(d) did I mention the complexity isn't worth it? <br /><br />I'm 100% for terrain in space<br />(a) most fights will occur at a bottleneck (jumpgate) or resource (planet etc) If space is empty why are they fighting over it?<br />(b) it adds a huge amount of interest/tactics to the game. Never mind that you could fly over the asteroid - I WANT it to block LoS and be anavigation hazard<br /><br />VICTORY CONDITIONS<br />I really like "losing conditions" as seen in the PC game Wargame: EE<br /><br />*When you lose xy amount of points you lose i.e. 500 points from a 1500 point army<br /><br />This has a few great effects<br />(a) you can reinforce one side without changing the victory conditions<br />(b) you can change the ratio (i.e. side A can lose 500, but the side B can lose 1000)<br />(c) players realistically protect their units i.e. pull back damaged units<br /><br />Thanks - you got my mind going with more ideas! As usual, the comments section delivers!evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-2200145180816205492015-04-14T21:10:09.429-07:002015-04-14T21:10:09.429-07:00Good one. I am really looking for good spaceship f...Good one. I am really looking for good spaceship fight (and it needs boarding parties!) I am looking to play Hyperion type of space battles.<br /><br />Few comments: Most of existing space games are 2D, while Space has no ground to crash into! Keep it in mind.<br />Scenario is key to break the fight to death games that are boring. In Bolt Action, I am trying to move the group beyond 1000pts vs. 1000pts and kill all. Also most of games don't factor losses. Winning a battle by having the last wounded guy standing on top of a pile of dead bodies is not victory for me. Scenario should also benefit commander who don't annihilate their armies in the process.<br /><br />There is also the need for asymmetric battles. A defender should have bonus that an attacker has not, while the attacker has a larger requisition value. In no battle somebody attacks an opponent without overwhelming chances to win.<br /><br />Strategy cards. In the age of space travel, I am sure that there are lots of opportunity for both side to know/plan tricks. It can come with additional capabilities (equipment card, improved crew), events card (malfunction, sabotage, low ammo, ambushed missile carriers, not-the-ship-you-are-looking-for, commander-on-different-ship)<br /><br />Activation: The current mechanics from Wings of Glory works for space ship and kinetic. All player plan their move hidden face and disclose at once. True, it ends up very long preparation phase (that could be sped up with limited time, pre-set token per ship category), but I am sure it may be as fast as playing each ship independently. Shooting/shield became more a mix of reaction to opponent move and prepared plan. I also represent in a good fashion that all happen at the same time. Strategy/Event cards may also spice up that phase (faster, slower, panic,...)<br /><br />Scenario Ideas:<br />- Rescue the station (= VP each turn). Defender with lower force has to defend a space station against an attacker.<br />- Pillage. Same as above, but attacker has to take the station first. <br />- Convoy. A defender has to protect a convoy to cross the table to jump point, while the attacker has to board and control. Both player will definitely need to split their forces. The convoy ships move and shoud reach jumping point by turn 6cedrichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09567465798644856588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-79473776428089594422015-04-14T20:48:50.134-07:002015-04-14T20:48:50.134-07:00I'm not arguing the point, I'm just sugges...I'm not arguing the point, I'm just suggesting the gentleman might be reinventing the wheel. One game from the 90s (Starcruiser or 2300AD?) had 1" (yes, 1") range, with 12"+ movement! <br /><br />This is an interesting can of worms:<br />" The major problem with this idea is that without a good activation mechanic you end up chasing tails. He who wins initiative wins."<br />^ Frankly, I've never played an aerial dogfight (or spacefighter, which is invariably the same thing - WW2 in space) game that satisfied me. evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-18261379219198236232015-04-14T18:26:38.654-07:002015-04-14T18:26:38.654-07:00No doubt others have changed the ratio before. But...No doubt others have changed the ratio before. But by reducing the weapons range below the ship's movement you encourage players to move ships more like fighters than battlships- which can be good or bad depending on what you're trying to simulate. The difference in play between 36" weapons with 6" movement and 24" range with 6" speed is significant. The difference between 24" range with 6" movement and 6" range with 12" movement is a completely different experience. It's like the difference between Star Wars Star Destroyers and Babylon 5 White Stars. The major problem with this idea is that without a good activation mechanic you end up chasing tails. He who wins initiative wins.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00187065770162938672noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-16189065421053846042015-04-14T16:37:40.147-07:002015-04-14T16:37:40.147-07:00A confession: My underground map was designed so I...A confession: My underground map was designed so I could start a normal wargame, have a crater collapse suddenly in the middle of the table, set up the underground table, then continue the battle in the underworld - introducing NPC monsters (repurposed Tyrannids) controlled by me...<br /><br />evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.com