tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post4804206743759910033..comments2024-03-24T00:19:48.310-07:00Comments on Delta Vector: Game Design #25: Mordhiem, Competitive Campaigns, Stats (again), and BalanceevilleMonkeighhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-37694344133036263422016-12-13T13:42:19.134-08:002016-12-13T13:42:19.134-08:00Some excellent ideas in the main article.
I really...Some excellent ideas in the main article.<br />I really like the idea of skill rolls during the "Bye" rounds.<br /><br />We bring this idea from the oldskool RPGs that fighting makes you stronger.<br />While practice may get you to the Carnegie hall, incessant fighting gets you killed (or at least mad).<br />Modern armies know this - and endeavour to rotate their troops out of the lien before long term combat fatigue sets in.<br /><br />Learning (and I think that's what we mean by progress or levelling up) really requires two things.<br />1. Performing practical skills within, but at the upper end of your current ability. (Killing your first Orc is a learning experience, killing your two thousandth .. No isn't it time you moved onto the ogres?).<br />2. Study and rest. Practical learning, instructed or self paced, but done where it's safe to experiment, learn that new fancy move form a fencing instructor, try some longer range shooting....<br /><br />I'd propose that the characters or unit need a mixture of both to really improve their abilities.SteveHolmes11https://www.blogger.com/profile/17392212343858957364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-30888439492157891662015-02-07T01:46:46.398-08:002015-02-07T01:46:46.398-08:00I enjoyed the old Realm of Chaos campaign rules fr...I enjoyed the old Realm of Chaos campaign rules from WFB 3rd edition. Create your Chaos Champion and his warband, roll lots of D1000s for mutations etc. Champion and individual characters get individual Chaos attributes (some good, some bad, some with no effect other than interesting modelling/conversion possibilities), units in the warband get "dominant Chaos attributes (not all in the band have it so a reduced average effect).<br />Not particularly balanced because you could end up with one warband with only a couple of characters but another with fearsome mutations and 20 characters but we still had great fun with it in the late '90s!Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13312982908057794491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-28606611498688139812015-02-02T08:20:25.247-08:002015-02-02T08:20:25.247-08:00Lol Undead were utterly underpowered in Mordheim a...Lol Undead were utterly underpowered in Mordheim along with witch hunters because most of there warband could not gain experience and it was henchman that were broken due to a combination of limited increases open and little experience required to get them there would mean that you'd quickly have groups 1-5 for Str4 T4 A2 W2 minions running around! That and the movement Skills that technically allowed a easily achievable 24" charge range and a possible 30" range which is further than most common missile weapons could fire! <br /><br />Though I've got to admit despite its flaws I still love Mordheim though for changes I am watching the currently beta format video game version as they seem to have changed a lot of the base mechanics towards a swifter more dynamic game, though I'm still dubious about having all gangs the same size (never an issue in my opinion in the previous games and a handy balancing tool)... crimsonsunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05302271858539329005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-55303302025440356422015-01-28T00:41:57.007-08:002015-01-28T00:41:57.007-08:00Limited resource generates choice. Choice generate...Limited resource generates choice. Choice generates thinking. Thinking leads to strategy.<br />In the same extend, creating/having weaknesses generate choice, ...cedrichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09567465798644856588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-89990763203762606562015-01-28T00:20:48.433-08:002015-01-28T00:20:48.433-08:00^This. However mechanics bother me less than lack...^This. However mechanics bother me less than lack of thought in activation/initiative. It's a dead horse, but I like to beat it. Ignoring activation for IGOUGO is like ignoring the presence of a 3rd dimension - you're skipping a complete level of tactics/depth that isn't complex to implement.<br /><br />I'm becoming increasingly interested in simple resource management implemented within games. For example, the Robotech units getting a "command token" they can use to boost their normal move/fire/defence isn't a complicated rule, but how and when you spend it adds a lot of depth for only a tiny increase in difficulty.evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-77833222808475210402015-01-28T00:13:31.835-08:002015-01-28T00:13:31.835-08:00Roll to hit, roll for damage, roll saving throw, r...Roll to hit, roll for damage, roll saving throw, roll morale.<br />Repeat 1000 times.<br /><br />Death by YahtzeeWeaselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05873440251698488032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-63954622339700321702015-01-28T00:07:54.502-08:002015-01-28T00:07:54.502-08:00I don't mind if people disagree, as long as I ...I don't mind if people disagree, as long as I have helped people consider WHY they do things. Most rules books seem to have one good idea, and the rest is done in rote fashion as "paint by numbers/connect the dots" <br /><br />evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-31896079367242893522015-01-28T00:01:25.737-08:002015-01-28T00:01:25.737-08:00Yeah - Bravado is kinda like "Might" fro...Yeah - Bravado is kinda like "Might" from Lord of the Rings - a finite resource to pull of heroic moves/survive. It's a good way to make heroes heroic without giving them godlike stats. evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-44594945517331527542015-01-27T23:56:20.314-08:002015-01-27T23:56:20.314-08:00For some reason, reading your post reminded me of ...For some reason, reading your post reminded me of a gripe I have with Battle Companies - it may take 2-3 games for anyone to level up beyond vanilla. I reckon units should start with a bit of flavour (maybe skill rolls before the campaign). Will add it to the original post. evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-68731737837527699792015-01-27T23:54:46.632-08:002015-01-27T23:54:46.632-08:00For Bravado, I forgot to give an example.
Vala sho...For Bravado, I forgot to give an example.<br />Vala shoot at the enemy boss. If he hits, game is won. So, to make sure he hit, the Player roll 1 dice (standard dice to test) and 1 more dice (from the Bravado) to increase chances to succeed. If the test is failed, same. If both dice succeeded, no additional effect, Bravado is still spent.cedrichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09567465798644856588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-18470853662871561452015-01-27T23:50:37.964-08:002015-01-27T23:50:37.964-08:00My 2cts contribution to the topic.
First, let'...My 2cts contribution to the topic.<br /><br />First, let's agree on the definition of Skirmish game: 1-12 individuals per side, with micro management of the individual (we manage the equipment, the characteristics of the individual).<br /><br />For storytelling based, that will be 1-2 Hero with 3-4 Buddy (sidekicks) and a bunch of Henchmen (noname, rank and file, cannon fodder, ...) to help but without any deep background.<br /><br />To get to your balance quick game/deep rules, I would go for an extended set of characteristics, but not too much. This is still a skirmish, not a RP, and Oratory is not a bulletproof skill.<br /><br />Agility (cinematic action: jumping, stumbling, ...), Strength (hit hard or no, carry load), Stamina (= wounds, decrease with wounds taken), Willpower (from magic to capacity to stay in the fight), Perception (Against hidden units, to find stuff, which may give scenario opportunity other than flag and kill), BS (shooting), WS (Melee), Movement (inch), Bravado (for the subset of characters that count and may progress, gives extra dice to roll).<br /><br />3 categories of individuals: Henchman, Buddy, Hero <br />Henchman: Stamina 1, Bravado 0. This guys is out on the first wound, cannot roll 1 extra dice<br />Buddy: Stamina 2, Bravado 0. This guys can stand more than 1 wound but will not have extra dice<br />Hero: Stamina 2+, Bravado 1+. The character that can really do something, with Bravado, can roll an extra dice on critical test. Bravado spent is reset at the end of the scenario. Rolling extra dice is done before actual result. It's more an insurance dice than a re-roll. <br /><br />then, you will go with at most 1 skill per Buddy, zero for Henchmen, and 2 or 3 max per Hero.<br />Skill would be 6-10 per characteristics. you roll once per turn, and once you reach the characteristic increase. <br />Example. Vala is a Hero. He has Agility 4 (whatever scale). Each game he survives, he gain 1 XP. He assign all his XP to Agility. Once at 4, he can buy 1 more Skill for Agility. Point is: Growing skills is long, so characters are likely set, only player will less casualties will gain edge. Skill can be limited to 1 per characteristic and drawn randomly.<br />cedrichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09567465798644856588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-46990676392772594342015-01-27T23:00:24.016-08:002015-01-27T23:00:24.016-08:00I don't think players should be able to "...I don't think players should be able to "build to a tactic" (aka min-max) but neither should rolls be random. and totally unsuited to the player (like I said, an ogre should not be getting random sharpshooter skills).<br /><br />Your super-gangsta-killer shouldn't become a wtfbbqpwn machine - I vaguely recall some Mordhiem heroes (undead?) could become unstoppable/unkillable if they levelled up early.evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-91152600122674301212015-01-27T22:57:25.007-08:002015-01-27T22:57:25.007-08:00True. It's not bad in itself - it just how it ...True. It's not bad in itself - it just how it is used to paper over cracks in the game design. <br /><br />Personally, I like to level up my own dudes, rather than use some random guy who I'll never see again.... evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-70484905964559530512015-01-27T15:29:51.712-08:002015-01-27T15:29:51.712-08:00But what if you could get a temporary attachment -...But what if you could get a temporary attachment - a 'wandering wizard' if you will - who comes along for the fun of one mission for his own reasons, but doesn't join the war band. The filler then adds a creative element which balances that encounter while adding to the narrativePaul O'Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08611720164170399684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-18306778101227710742015-01-27T15:10:44.675-08:002015-01-27T15:10:44.675-08:00All great advice, I think we are on the same page ...All great advice, I think we are on the same page as to what we like from our games. Like many others I'm busy developing my own game, and i take hart from all your observations that I am on the right track.FilmExilehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935064846182355579noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-55973709005756979162015-01-27T13:23:50.480-08:002015-01-27T13:23:50.480-08:00Objectives are important to avoid "kill em al...Objectives are important to avoid "kill em all" games - XP can be attached to them, just not so focussed on winning.<br /><br />Core mechanics don't matter (to me). Using a Warmachine approach is fine but 2d6 makes for difficult math when balancing. <br /><br />Individual hit locations remind me of Gloire and Battletech - two games not known for swift resolution. Remember the more detailed the mechanics, the slower the game plays - and it would be ideal to be able to play 2-3 games in an evening....<br /><br />Lots of interesting ideas, by the way - you should make a draft set on GoogleDrive/Dropbox and see if people want to playtest it with you....evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-55546076931246784942015-01-27T13:18:35.630-08:002015-01-27T13:18:35.630-08:00I do think you're approaching from the "n...I do think you're approaching from the "narrative"point of view - with all the creativity of that style! A few responses:<br /><br />While I agree with activation/reaction ideas, a set of 8+ stats is heading deep into RPG terrritory...evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-60180640970986420522015-01-27T13:12:14.743-08:002015-01-27T13:12:14.743-08:00I played a fair bit of Blood Bowl in my teens (awe...I played a fair bit of Blood Bowl in my teens (awesome game) and am looking at getting the Android version.<br /><br />However the "filler" stuff like star players, re-rolls etc is something I'd like to minimise in favour of simply having more balanced warbands through the campaign. evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-67400887772767241672015-01-27T13:09:41.583-08:002015-01-27T13:09:41.583-08:00I think I reviewed it:
http://deltavector.blogspo...I think I reviewed it:<br /><br />http://deltavector.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/strange-aeons-horror-skirmish-rulebook.htmlevilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-52912512815079270622015-01-27T13:08:00.586-08:002015-01-27T13:08:00.586-08:00I don't think a campaign should be perfectly b...I don't think a campaign should be perfectly balanced nor should it be. <br /><br />However I'd like to see the wilder swings in warband ability minimized and largely remove the "filler" stuff (re-rolls, extra gold a la Blood Bowl).<br /><br />Usually the indie RPG lite-skirmish guys are the ones with enormous imaginations that add " all the cool things." The games are made from a purely narrative-RPG standpoint. I'd like to see a more "balanced" (accidental pun) approach. evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-71515605660447298412015-01-27T13:03:15.904-08:002015-01-27T13:03:15.904-08:00True! My memories of Necromunda are hazy as I I re...True! My memories of Necromunda are hazy as I I remember I liked the game but disliked the post-apoc setting. There's something about leather, bad hygiene and spiky bitz that just does not appeal (...this one time, at band camp...)evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-44614864469870595282015-01-27T12:41:39.633-08:002015-01-27T12:41:39.633-08:00Having a look now, the name is confusing however a...Having a look now, the name is confusing however as I swear its what some software I've used for years now for creating gaming cards and accessories for games such as wfrp3ecrimsonsunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05302271858539329005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-66927760496123256292015-01-27T12:39:09.537-08:002015-01-27T12:39:09.537-08:00That's awful for terms of narrative developmen...That's awful for terms of narrative development or building to a tactic, I seriously HATE random skill categories. Random increase aka bloodbowl is fine but random skills is so meh, especially since there's always a couple of useless ones which your super star gangsta killer dudes going to roll...crimsonsunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05302271858539329005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-50990047685665973802015-01-27T12:37:19.919-08:002015-01-27T12:37:19.919-08:00Crimson sun you should definitely try strange aeon...Crimson sun you should definitely try strange aeons its got heros and henchmen 1 major hero and 1 minor hero its got an alternating activation but you can normally nominate 3 guys if 1 of them is your leader. its got actions its got skills and stats advances. plus lots of monster variants and pulpy goodness<br />I do like that 1 player takes on the role as protaganist and one is the enemy so it doesnt have that gang vesus gang feel and feels more different.<br />because 1 guy is not fighting with his 'gang' he feels less stressed about losing his guys and more likely to take risksJthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05926697264806086812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-37456058313092420732015-01-27T11:22:34.902-08:002015-01-27T11:22:34.902-08:00A campaign is always going to end up unbalanced, b...A campaign is always going to end up unbalanced, but usually it's so fun that the players don't mind.<br /><br />As an aside, the skill problem was solved by GW before they invented the problem. Necromunda had skills randomly generated from within a category while Mordheim let you choose freely which was broken more or less instantly.Weaselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05873440251698488032noreply@blogger.com