tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post8102280455050725468..comments2024-03-24T00:19:48.310-07:00Comments on Delta Vector: Game Design #47: In Praise of Area of Effect (AoE) WeaponsevilleMonkeighhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-30052447079439625992015-09-03T00:39:04.393-07:002015-09-03T00:39:04.393-07:00Thanks - that's a great example of what I'...Thanks - that's a great example of what I'm trying to say.<br /><br />Suppressive fire is the norm when fire is being exchanged; then aimed fire for particular circumstances....evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-25071154984404533222015-09-02T15:02:28.583-07:002015-09-02T15:02:28.583-07:00Excellent book "Shots Fired in Anger" by...Excellent book "Shots Fired in Anger" by John B. George, has a chapter describing a battle between U.S. Merrill's Marauders and Japanse army troops in Burma. The Japanese pnned down the U.S. troops with intense small arms fire, the soldiers could not move from their foxholes or return fire. It was expected that the Japanese would send units around the flank and once they were at point blank range the pinning fire would stop and the Japanese would overrun the Americans. An excellent example of AoE fire, the Americans were not taking casualties but they could not move or prevent the Japanese from closing. Instead of flanking the Japanese lifted their fire and charged the Americans who were on the other side of a small river. The Americans being no longer pinned down were able to use accurate aimed fire at the Japanese. The American fire did not pin down or drive off the Japanese, it killed them. John describes that a few Japanese made it across the river before being killed with most of them falling in the river. This then becomes an example of the use of aimed fire at enemy troops without cover.Charlesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-51609048038617762832015-07-30T07:04:33.290-07:002015-07-30T07:04:33.290-07:00Better as both? Would love to see a forum about g...Better as both? Would love to see a forum about game design. And then each blog post could have a "to discuss this post" link? Because the blog posts are really doing a great job of guiding the discussion.Nicholas Caldwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11750294903050480971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-16048854626796570322015-07-30T07:02:30.560-07:002015-07-30T07:02:30.560-07:00Havoc does this remarkably well, IMO. Archer voll...Havoc does this remarkably well, IMO. Archer volleys hit every model in the unit (where unit is defined as all models in base to base contact). So unless you want mass casualties you either move or break formation (or put a shield wall up). It very much creates a "You need to take care of this NOW" effect -- which is what you want with artillery.Nicholas Caldwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11750294903050480971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-76285511291595307882015-07-30T06:57:16.195-07:002015-07-30T06:57:16.195-07:00@Paul - I like this idea, and was thinking about u...@Paul - I like this idea, and was thinking about using something similar with the scatter dice. On the 6, you hit. On an arrow it scatters back or forward in the direction indicated, but only along the line of fire.<br /><br />@evilMonkeigh - The FFTW3 rules are similar to Stargrunt and Dirtside and work well in those systems. I like the affect of zeroing in with spotting rounds and the area denial effect. But as you say, not really the right effect for ballista and early cannon.<br /><br />So I think I will incorporate two suggestions for my next game of Havoc. One is a to-hit roll. For this I will need to think a bit, because I can't remember if artillery crew even have a ranged attack value. But if not, I think I can assign one fairly easily. (And that leads to the idea of having "elite" crewmen who have, say, a 1 higher ranged attack value. I like that idea.) And if they miss, then roll a die to see if they are over or under (even or odd) and then another die to determine by how much. <br /><br />Finally, if needed, use the normal "bounce" rolls (in Havoc, if you don't hit your target the cannonball may bounce along the ground. This doesn't make as much sense with a ballista bolt as with a cannonball but it's how Havoc handles it).<br /><br />Great discussion - thanks!Nicholas Caldwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11750294903050480971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-88761311414761501952015-07-29T15:46:10.438-07:002015-07-29T15:46:10.438-07:00A system I like (though probably not suitable for ...A system I like (though probably not suitable for your purpose) is the FFTW3 arty rules.<br /><br />You place an arty template over your target in your turn, but nothing happens (firing an ineffective ranging shot)<br /><br />AFTER their turn (giving them time to move) the fire from the whole battery hits and everything which is still under it is hit.<br /><br />In your turn, you may move the template a few inches (correcting the shots) which can be outrun by vehicles or infantry fleeing hastily. <br /><br />It makes artillery good at zeroing in on entrenched/static positions but unlikely to hit moving units who can flee the barrage. It makes it a good area denial weapon. It's also very simple with no deviation rolls etc. evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-22644170484377225392015-07-29T15:20:11.704-07:002015-07-29T15:20:11.704-07:00I you want to get real old school, make a template...I you want to get real old school, make a template to place over the target along that line, with numbers showing where the fall of shot goes. Make those closest to the target in either direction high numbers and those farthest away low numbers. Roll a die to see where the round falls. Add 1 to the die roll for every subsequent turn you miss to show the rounds being 'walked' onto the target.Paul O'Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08611720164170399684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-16066697284307632032015-07-29T14:53:54.959-07:002015-07-29T14:53:54.959-07:00I'd not use scatter, but use a normal to hit r...I'd not use scatter, but use a normal to hit roll.<br /><br />If it misses, mentally make a line between the target and the firer (that extends infinitely in either direction). <br /><br />If any units (friend or foe) are along this line, roll "to hit" against the closest, with say only a very small chance to hit (i.e. 1 on d6).<br /><br />After all, scatter is meaningless unless it hits something. <br /><br />Firer----------------------------> target --------------> other unit, in line of fire, who may get hit by a shot that misses the original target...evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-46849238354661578422015-07-29T08:24:34.677-07:002015-07-29T08:24:34.677-07:00"I hate, hate, hate "guess the range&quo..."I hate, hate, hate "guess the range" AoE template weapons"<br />+1. No, make that + several million. I recently hit this with cannon in Havoc, but I don't see an easy way to replace it. A catapult could use a scatter die, but that didn't feel right for a more line of sight weapon like a cannon or a ballista. I'm still trying to figure out how to replace this.Nicholas Caldwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11750294903050480971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-80175308595644574592015-07-14T14:19:08.646-07:002015-07-14T14:19:08.646-07:00Probably better as a blog - my fault for trying to...Probably better as a blog - my fault for trying to skim the material.Nurglitchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03333941626425462180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-16327320296576732052015-07-14T14:18:31.228-07:002015-07-14T14:18:31.228-07:00Speaking of resolving every bullet from every mode...Speaking of resolving every bullet from every model, I made a game years and years ago that did something like that, where the players marked out the trajectories of the shots using string. Perhaps for obvious reasons it didn't catch on.Nurglitchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03333941626425462180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-90787947057347531852015-07-13T18:29:58.148-07:002015-07-13T18:29:58.148-07:00Yes, overly repetitive mechanics get dull.
But ma...Yes, overly repetitive mechanics get dull.<br /><br />But maybe the Giant Squid's tentacles can generate an AoE... :-)Paul O'Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08611720164170399684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-79581221689721699542015-07-13T17:55:25.140-07:002015-07-13T17:55:25.140-07:00True. I've tried to avoid using similar mecha...True. I've tried to avoid using similar mechanics (something that peeves me off about the 'copy-and-paste' PDF rules series you see a lot of atm) but I do like the "missiles as AoE" idea - allows you to dodge them if you are fast enough. <br /><br />That said, underwater thermal vents, kelp forests, thermoclines, and giant squid will provide some terrain...evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-18976284168203306602015-07-13T17:53:03.143-07:002015-07-13T17:53:03.143-07:00See 3rd comment down. That's the problem when ...See 3rd comment down. That's the problem when the replies have more interesting content than the posts!<br /><br />This really needs to be a forum rather than a blog...evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-89310582332050686062015-07-13T10:02:26.126-07:002015-07-13T10:02:26.126-07:00You know, your pictured DvTE AoE approach for miss...You know, your pictured DvTE AoE approach for missiles would also work very well for captor mines or slow speed, seeking torpedoes in SF SubWar... Paul O'Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08611720164170399684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-43210800946232812015-07-13T05:01:25.787-07:002015-07-13T05:01:25.787-07:00Starship Troopers, first edition by Andy Chambers,...Starship Troopers, first edition by Andy Chambers, resolved shooting almost entirely on an AoE basis. Nurglitchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03333941626425462180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-50019918892705190412015-07-12T12:45:05.908-07:002015-07-12T12:45:05.908-07:00the 'storm of arrows' effect was rather le...the 'storm of arrows' effect was rather lethal at range also because of the plunging effect and the less armoured areas they struck.<br /><br />Its a interesting and different approach to gaming though. I can see a mechanic where an infantry squad comes under fire in an AoE (say a MG), may or may not take casualties, takes a morale test and goes to ground to seek better cover. An officer/Senior NCO moves up to rally them and push forward, but the AoE 'effect' remains until repositioned on another target or the MG position is itself silenced.<br /><br />Put that way, its seems rather simple and straightforward. Interesting that we haven't seen it in any rules to date (that I am aware of)Paul O'Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08611720164170399684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-32286431632652576922015-07-11T23:50:01.839-07:002015-07-11T23:50:01.839-07:00Isn't that my they had knight dismount and adv...Isn't that my they had knight dismount and advance on foot? i.e. showers of arrows that could maim a horse (throwing rider) at range could be slogged through on foot if well-armoured. (and if you had the guts for it, hence - AoE/morale)<br /><br />The bodkin-tipped longbow only punched through armour at ~30m or less, right?<br /><br />Random Fact: I think I recall reading recently that modern tests showed leather "jack" armour is quite effective (better than chainmail) at distributing the force of arrows; at longer ranges, also to non-lethal levels. evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-82369850685754298762015-07-11T16:42:22.470-07:002015-07-11T16:42:22.470-07:00Thats an interesting aspect I hadn't considere...Thats an interesting aspect I hadn't considered before. One could also see room for a morale test to enter such an AoE too. Charging Knights on horseback might pass, but it less likely the supporting, less well armoured peasants would... Thus the bows would really break up enemy formationsPaul O'Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08611720164170399684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-67145828279873474732015-07-11T15:25:19.875-07:002015-07-11T15:25:19.875-07:00No disagreement, and this is one of the most enjoy...No disagreement, and this is one of the most enjoyable blog series I've ever seen. As for 24" range rifles, yes - If that's 300 meters. Since it's maybe 50 or so at scale, it's insulting. Probably my biggest pet peeve in gaming. I don't demand absolute realism, but that's ridiculous.Beast 44ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08422921351792961503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-19796592779809722102015-07-11T14:57:31.115-07:002015-07-11T14:57:31.115-07:00"AoE weapons also provide an interesting chal..."AoE weapons also provide an interesting challenge to a player in how to employ them effectively."<br /><br />This.<br /><br />I originally disliked template weapons, as they seem a bit of a "dumb" weapon. But they offer interesting choices when properly implemented.<br /><br />And I think there is considerable evidence that AoE is more widespread IRL than in games. For example, even English longbowmen firing showers of arrows at range could be considered more an "area denial" or "suppressive" weapon. I don't see many medieval games treating them as such. evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-66531697239429105702015-07-11T14:48:54.722-07:002015-07-11T14:48:54.722-07:00Sure. But we are now heading into a discussion of ...Sure. But we are now heading into a discussion of ground and time scale. Something many(most?) games treat as flexible. For example, in FoF, how far is a 8" move? What period of time does a turn represent? <br /><br />Without absolutes, it becomes a personal decision of what is and isn't realistic. Since I recall arty working OK in FoF without deviating the entire board, I presume wide deviation is a house rule you have decided - whereas the devs decided it was within the parameters they (rightly or wrongly) gave themselves. <br /><br />I mean, how big are the AoE templates are we talking about? Is a grenade a 1" radius blast or a 5" radius blast? How much frontage could a squad or MG suppress? (Quite a large area, judging from WW2 accounts). <br /><br />I personally think limiting rifles (40K style) to 24" is stupid, but if 24" = 300m, then it's quite plausible to make that the "effective range." <br /><br />I think I posted on scale somewhere in this series, way back at the start....evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-30026912507095609272015-07-11T12:19:10.577-07:002015-07-11T12:19:10.577-07:00AoE weapons also provide an interesting challenge ...AoE weapons also provide an interesting challenge to a player in how to employ them effectively. Consider the relatively simple MG. This should generate a cigar shaped 'beaten zone' AoE. It is, therefore, best used from the flank where it can catch as many enemy in the beaten zone, not firing directly out. Getting a MG on each flank where they can generate crossfires with overlapping beaten zones - that is an art with very deadly effects. I don't think many games do this well at all.Paul O'Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08611720164170399684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-65872300987860302652015-07-10T21:07:32.769-07:002015-07-10T21:07:32.769-07:00Fantastic post, but think about the scale of most ...Fantastic post, but think about the scale of most game boards. If a modern game or any game using modern-ish firearms as common equipment, they can reach all the way across the board (sorry, WH40K). Likewise, the deviation of any artillery round, which should be used as an off-board asset, will likely encompass more than the dimensions of the game board. I love the concepts you describe, but in most scales, they wouldn't realistically present themselves. I incorporate artillery in Force on Force games with a radius of deviation that makes them potentially dangerous to most everyone on he board, and have seen calling artillery as a decisive factor in the loss of the calling party.Beast 44ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08422921351792961503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8394074963215462822.post-43157497063121377912015-07-08T21:05:47.944-07:002015-07-08T21:05:47.944-07:00I've been reading quite a few Stephen Ambrose ...I've been reading quite a few Stephen Ambrose books (of Band of Brothers fame) which are full of first-hand accounts. I was surprised how often soldiers said the only German infantry they ever saw were surrendering/POWs, or in unique, isolated incidents. And these are troops who were continuously in action from D-Day to Berlin.<br /><br />The "bunch up when suppressed" rule was interesting. On a chapter on new recruits, I remember a few key reasons rookies were disliked were<br />(a) inability to use cover/concealment<br />(b) tendency to bunch up and attract AoE weapons like mortars/MG42s<br />(c) freeze under fire/not move forward when exposed in open to AoE<br /><br />In house to house fighting, the veteran units didn't move along streets but tunneled through walls. Veteran units usually "dug in" faster and more thoroughly. <br /><br />However all units had how to "fire and maneuver" drilled into them; part of platoon establishes a "base of fire" and the rest flanked. Hedgerows made this hard in Normandy - where was the flank, exactly?evilleMonkeighhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11998198938697175335noreply@blogger.com