This is responding to a discussion in comments on a previous post ("why no boardgames or RPGs") and a parallel discussion I was having with my kids; who like me are unwilling participants in my wife's love of boardgames. So here goes. A rant article with little effort to appear even-handed in my coverage :-P
1.The toys suck.
I have a giant elephant with archer turrets. You have some wooden blocks.
You have a flat painted map on a piece of cardboard. I have a towering ancient city.
We are not the same.
Even little kids know the difference. Unfortunately my 10 year old discovered this early and now rejects his expensive LEGO as not cool enough in order to use my equally expensive but much more fragile dad toys.
Boardgames can be cool too! No they aren’t. They are wooden meeples and painted bits of cardboard about stuff like birds. If you insist on regarding painted 2D cardboard as artistic or cool, then I suggest a visiting a museum. Or collect Magic cards, if you want to ease storage as well as faster removal of your money.
But some hybrid boardgames - like Kingdom Death - have epic models! Well, if that’s your kink I’m not stopping you but a) a single 28mm model for $50 is GW territory b) it is still abstract, yet also very complex, token heavy with lots of book-keeping (see below). There’s better ways to get a cool toy fix.
With wargames, the toys are better....
2. Boardgames are
better if you just want have a worse experience to
play, not paint!
a) The hobby aspect is kinda vital to wargaming so you are obviously a filthy casual – the sort of person who takes their Toyota 86 to the track but can’t change the oil and should be thus gatekept
b) if the key aspect is ease of play – can I present videogames? Your humble mobile phone has you covered if you are not a member of the PC master race. But wait - people rarely play boardgames on their phones or PCs because – they’re not very fun!
The
myth of the all-in-one
expensive
convenient box… You know who does this in tabletop
wargames? Games Workshop. They also charge $300+ for
the contents of the box. If you don’t enjoy the idea of working
out a fun army and prioritise instant gameplay over hobby elements, I
refer you to my point about mobile phone games.
If the box does have cool toys in it, expect to play more, for less quality. If it’s full of wooden meeples and printed cardboard, expect to pay a surprising amount anyway.
The boxes aren’t all that convenient, either. I can usually fit quite a 3-4 armies in the same space taken by a single boardgame. Given you can choose your own mini boxes, (unlike boardgames) they can be chosen to fit optimally in what is available.
If the best thing about a boardgame night is the players… can I just say lots of people can make anything seem cool. Even sports like volleyball. I mean, just hitting a ball over a rope and not letting it touch the ground? No wonder they introduced a bikini beach version.
But boardgames were invented so socially inept people could pretend to interact while distracting themselves from the terror of conversation. A nerdy safe space, making it easy to gather the socially awkward. So if having lots of players is the selling point of a boardgame… ..who are you attracting?
On the other hand, playing regularly is often impossible. Then your 300 boardgame collection is worthless. That ‘ease of play’ and ‘everything in a box’ is pointless. In contrast, wargames have a vast ‘out of game experience’ – you can be having fun even when you’re not playing – collect, paint, kitbash, list-build, terrain.... Some boutique wargames even focus on this.
You’re lucky if you can play, though. Boardgame rulebooks are awful. They are incomprehensible pieces of folded A4. If you don’t have “that guy” to teach you you are screwed. Contrast this with your choice of glossy coffee table book or full colour digital PDF. Even the worst wargame rulebooks are leaps ahead of the best boardgame rulebooks (and RPG’s - but that’s a topic for another day…)
When you do play, boardgames are not as cinematic or memorable. My kids remember rounds of Hunt Showdown (PC game) from months ago. They recall specific incidents from wargames from years ago “the time we teamed up against dad and chased his Uruk Hai off the table” “When dad climbed over the wall with the goblins but we killed his troll...”
….You know what
they don’t remember? Boardgames.
At best, it’s always
a general observation about the game itself like “Cockroach
Poker? That’s the one where mum loses cos she can’t lie
well.”
3.Boardgames are about lame topics
Laying down tiles in a mosaic pattern. (grouting tiles!)
Birds, eggs and habitats (birdwatching! Even less cool than stamp collecting!)
Collecting wood, grain, bricks and sheep (chores!)
Trying to stop a disease (I’ve lived through COVID, so pass)
While these are a testament to people’s creativity imagination (and the wide spectrum of what people consider ‘fun’) I present to you an 8ft metahuman in armour sawing an alien in half with a chainsword. Yes, a chainsaw sword. I rest my case.
What about war board-games? Axis and Allies? They have boring toys and are too abstract. They are like proper tabletop wargames with the cool factor dialled down.
Even the ‘cutsiest’ wargame is cooler than a boardgame. Quar? Anteaters fighting WW1 with messenger squirrels driving mobile home tank tractors? Rather easily competes with Ticket-to-Ride's building abstract train lines.
4.Boardgames are too abstract
My 10 year old even recognizes this. He removes the RISK men off their official board and builds them bases out of LEGO so they can shoot and grapple hand to hand rather than swan about in an abstract way, zipping across a black line on a world map from Alaska to Siberia.
But you use Go as a good rules example all the time!
A bikini is also great example – e.g. of how to show everything while covering the minimal required. But I don’t wear a bikini either (except on dress up night). Go is a great example: of minimal rules, maximum strategy. But black and white pebbles on a square board still sucks. It was fine in 2000BC before injection-molded plastic.
5. Boardgames are the worse aspects of wargames
Collecting and arranging tokens? Counting up scores? These are the worst aspects of wargames. Sometimes, with boardgames, they are the whole game. It’s like saying the best part of motorbike riding is putting your helmet and all your gear on or off. In a boardgame you're sometimes literally a worker in an assembly line, maximising productivity. It’s busywork.
Board games align more with the competitive “meta” aspect of wargaming – which is what most people claim to enjoy less than narrative play and memorable moments. In fact boardgaming has slowly infiltrated wargames which were – originally – some dudes with an umpire mostly ad-libbing, with cool unexpected things being randomly added. Winning may be salvaging some troops from an unwinnable battle - not an even battle over points. Popular-but-bad games like 40K actually edge in to boardgame territory.
Boardgames are more about winning or losing than cool narratives....
“No they are not!” “Insertname is a great co-op game”
Boardgames tend to be either a (a) largely random (b) social engineering or (c) an optimally solvable puzzle. I see this with family – after about the fourth play though a meta (optimal) playstyle has emerged; once they notice it* the game tends to be abandoned. It’s like those citybuilder PC games. Once you’ve ‘solved’ the game there’s not much point lingering if there isn’t the hobby aspect (collect, paint models, build terrain etc.) *No, I wouldn't point it out to a 10 year old, to sabotage the game because that would be wrong. While wargames are a puzzle too the board (terrain) and often the sides (pieces) are usually random enough - usually the "meta" is to build around the strongest pieces.
Tape measures are messy. Line of sight and coherency is not precise. There isn’t a grid or hex where figures are precisely fixed. Wargames are more fluid and ‘real’ than the sterile abstraction and ‘gameiness’ of boardgames
Boardgame gameplay can be very samey. Boardgames have exploded in popularity (and become more mainstream) but also stagnated. Often new games are just old ones with a bit added or removed. I can say to my wife “x is just the drafting phase of y game but with cavemen cards instead of a pirate theme.”
Of course you can claim this about wargames, but unlike boardgames they are not relying solely on gameplay mechanics but tend to be driven by the fluff/background/universe. No one is doing a deep lore dive into the Sagrada universe. No one is making a movie about Monopoly (OK they did about Battleships but the only thing in common with the grid game is the word ‘battleship.’)
----
...I could go on (and I might) but this is actually a pretty long rant already and I've had my fun and want to go skateboarding. I may pop back on and add more to this; so bear in mind this is subject to change, if I decide to more seriously expand on the topic.
Obviously this is pretty tongue in cheek; but the actual aim is it might provoke interesting discussions:
Can wargames learn anything from boardgames? Are there concepts and mechanics that would benefit/could be borrowed? Or are boardgames just irremediably lame?
Why even have games and rules at all with an ethos like this, if it's all about the toys?
ReplyDeleteI'm genuinely curious if you read past the first paragraph.
Delete-eM
Crikey, mate, like famed Australian Crying Monkey award winner Kirk Lazarus, you don't drop character 'til you've done the DVD commentary.
DeleteBoardgames like Kingdom Death: Monster have tremendously good toys. Better, in fact, than anything produced by GW or the competition. At this point, KD:M gameplay has complexity on par with a GW wargame, so am now of a mind that KD:M is better as a painter's model source than a game.
- GG
I'll argue the reverse. Wargames have mostly stagnated for over 40 years; current GW games are recognisably almost identical in the core mechanics and concepts to those mid-60s designs of the likes of Featherstone adapted in the mid 80s to sell Citadel minis in the back of magazines. Innovations have been few and far between, and rarely adopted into more general use, instead becoming one hit wonders. X-Wing, for instance, between the initiative and template movement mechanics, had a truly different core game loop, but no other games really picked it up. Crossfire did away with measuring, but almost immediately people went right back to their rulers and tape measures and measuring sticks.
ReplyDeleteBy comparison, board games have gone through huge upheavals in design ethos in that time that spawned entire new genres. Resource management and worker placement Euro style games, tile laying, drafting/engine/deckbuilding, cooperative and semi-cooperative play, legacy games, heavily narrative games that draw from role playing and storytelling with huge story/lore elements (Gloomhaven, etc). Each game being mostly self-contained, there's a lot more chances to experiment, and without the distraction of a bucket of dice and shiny toys, boardgames actually have to focus on having a tight and compelling game loop. Sure there's a lot of duplication, but that's just because there's a lot of boardgames getting published.
Wargames don't rely on innovation, but on cool background and shiny for their hook. True innovation is NOT encouraged - well not in terms of commercial success or profit. X Wing was a variant of a WW1 biplane game. I'm pretty sure 40K came off Chainmail.
DeleteBoardgames tend to be reliant on gameplay or the 'tight gameplay loop' as they don't have the compelling lore or minis.
But is the loop any good?
"Resource management and worker placement Euro style games, tile laying, drafting/engine/deckbuilding...."
....Eeeww busywork... The worse bit of a wargame = is the 'fun' of a boardgame
...."legacy games" ...
Yay. games where you get to rip up units you paid money for.
"Co operative play" isn't that special. I can share control of an army no special rules needed. (Solitaire mechanics on the other hand.... that's cool)
While they may be needed to add interest to a game out tiling a mosaic or collecting sheep - are the 'innovations' desirable for a wargame?
the "RPG in a box" or "wargame in a box" hybrid boardgames just tend to be either expensive or with repetitive boring minis and expensive expansions... ...there's no compelling reason to buy one over a genuine RPG or narrative skirmish wargame. "In a box" is something GW has been doing for years and it isn't because of their commitment to great products over profit.
-eM
...I feel a bit guilty being so deliberately 'difficult'.... ....but I did advertise it upfront in the OP :-)
Boardgames can have theme. Not every board game is a dry euro about farming wooden blocks.
DeleteCoop games are a huge hit in my household. And even with my friends. The problem is how to avoid "quarterbacking". Some coop games enforce this by forbidding overcharging of information.
Gloomhaven (Jaws of the Lion) was a big miss in my group. It's very thematic and feels novel, but also way too complex for a game. It feels like a videogame ported to the tabletop -- big no from me. It feels like a chore rather than something to be enjoyed. But it *is* novel, I'll grant the other commenter.
Other things to be shunned from my tabletop: games that require apps, unfortunately a growing trend. I try to have gaming sessions where we stay *away* from screens!
"Boardgames can have theme. Not every board game is a dry euro about farming wooden blocks."
DeleteTrue.
Buuuuuuuut.... the most popular boardgames are like
Catan, Ticket to Ride, Wingspan, Pandemic, Carcassonne...
...but also must include Monopoly, Battleships, Monopoly (gasp!), trivial Pursuit, Cluedo etc.
They got theme alright. Just not cool ones.
If people wish to use GW 40K as their "anti wargame" example - on basis of it popularity - it's only fair they should be willing to accept Monopoly as their "pro-boardgame champion..."
:-)
-eM
"Crossfire did away with measuring, but almost immediately people went right back to their rulers and tape measures and measuring sticks."
DeleteI'd argue this is a good thing, actually. Removing time and ground scale is a crappy abstraction best left to boardgames.
-eM
Haha, no boardgamer uses Monopoly as their boardgame champion. It's a meme at this point that it's a terrible game.
DeleteThe rest... I realize you're intentionally not being objective but I like some of those themes. While "farming" themes have overstayed their welcome, trains are still cool. Everybody likes trains! :) Also Dinos from the Tiny Epic series, which yes, I realize it's farming. But farming dinosaurs!
Anyway, this is highly subjective.
> Pandemic
DeleteReign of Cthulhu fixes the theme. Assuming you're not bored of Lovecraftian mythos, which many people are. But it works for me in this case.
Another coop game I quite enjoyed; Paleo. Very nice theme, very hard, each scenario varies objectives. Nice artwork too.
PS: autocorrect is driving me nuts. If you see something I typed that makes no sense, please mentally correct to the nearest word that makes sense :P
"Haha, no boardgamer uses Monopoly as their boardgame champion. It's a meme at this point that it's a terrible game."
Delete...Yep but it's only fair I get to use it as a counterpoint every time someone mentions 40K based on popularity.
....Ironically, I got my wife into boardgames as she was saying how she hated boardgames like Monopoly as a kid.... and I unwisely said "That's because the mechanics are awful" and spent 10 minutes explaining why and pointing out better alternatives and the different modern boardgame 'genres.'
She said.... "fine, get me some of those better ones then!"
...and the rest is history (along with my bank balance).
-eM
I honestly don't understand why people dump on 40K. I mean, it's old and clunky, but - barring GW's outrageous business practices - it can be enjoyed.
DeleteIt's not my thing, but rather than constantly criticizing it I'd rather play wargames I do enjoy :)
I swear at this point I cannot stand yet another YouTuber raging against GW. Just promote other games!
> [about Crossfire] I'd argue this is a good thing, actually. Removing time and ground scale is a crappy abstraction best left to boardgames.
DeleteI think you're wrong here. Steven Thomas in *the* Crossfire blog balagan.info has good explorations of what makes a good wargame, and being a fan of Crossfire and as opinionated a blogger as you are, he explains why it has the right approach to abstraction. I also think abstraction is critical for good wargaming, but it has to be applied with a clear goal.
Because of how Crossfire is designed, it's one of the few WW2 wargames that can model surprise breakthroughs that were so typical of WW2 operations yet so few rules can model. Because of how Crossfire works -- yes, its abstracted movement/initiative rules -- you can have a sudden breakthrough in a spot you didn't foresee, and it's sudden and overwhelming. One moment it wasn't there, in the next initiative your opponents breaks through behind your lines and you're caught completely wrong footed. No IGOUGO or even WEGO nonsense.
"I think you're wrong here. Steven Thomas in *the* Crossfire blog balagan.info has good explorations of what makes a good wargame, and being a fan of Crossfire and as opinionated a blogger as you are, he explains why it has the right approach to abstraction."
DeleteI'll have to dig it out again - I tried it back in my Infinity-everything-with-reactions-are-cool phase and I think I struggled with terrain density/table layouts and did not enjoy the snooker feel of go til you fail...
-eM
If you are going to use Monopoly as your boardgame example, you need to be educated enough to understand what the Landlord's Game was designed to do, and then assess how well it does it. The simple mechanics are accessible to children, and the then pop culture references to Boardwalk and Park Place were no accident. Monopoly makes no bones about what it is - a game about naked capitalism, where capital accumulates for its own good, forming a total monopoly that bankrupts everyone else. It is Socialist propaganda, specifically designed to give 1 person a great time at the expense of everyone else at the table. If you properly understand that, then you must conclude that it succeeds spectacularly well!
DeleteHow many non-40k wargames meet and exceed their designer's expectations with similar global success?
- GG
It took me longer than I should to realize this was tongue in cheek, and was ready to get enraged.
ReplyDeleteI have to say I iterate between board and miniatures wargames, my two passions. I sometimes favor the former, sometimes I'm more in the mood for the latter. Boardgames are easier to bring to the table and get a game going, while wargames need more planning and see less table time (but I spend way more time thinking about them, buying toys, painting -- or thinking about painting, anyway).
To me mind, some of the best games combine aspects from board and wargames. Zombicide, for all it's simplicity, sees a lot of actual play with family and friends. It sits at that intersection of "cool toys" and "so simple to play I can explain it in 10 minutes".!,# it's fast play!
Another board/wargame I like is Battle Lore (1st edition, give me goblins please). I know other people love Memoir '44.
I also had a good recent experience with Combat Zone: Red, which has a "boardgamey" feel to it even if it's free form movement with measurement.
I think miniatures wargames have some lessons to learn from boardgames. Don't hate me, but I dislike things like True Line of Sight or complex terrain rules (43% of the model is visible so I can shoot you), I'd much rather consider the models as "tokens" and heavily abstract LoS, cover and even movement. A bit like how the XCOM videogame remake works.
"Alternate", not "iterate", dammit.
DeleteI'm not particularly serious - it's obviously personal preference what people like and dislike. I suspect there would usually be a vast overlap between wargamers/rpgers/boardgamers and playing several or all genres would be 'normal.'
DeleteWhile I play them to humour others, I actually don't particularly enjoy boardgames of any stripe, but am the chief researcher/purchaser/playtester/reviewer for my wife who has hundreds.
Sometimes I feel in game design there IS an objectively 'correct' answer. For example, is 'rolling 4+ to hit, then 4+ to wound, then 4+ for a cover save on a d6 less quick then rolling a 8 on a d8?' Nope. The single d8 roll is objectively quicker/more efficient.
Subjectively, I wildly detest rank and flank wargames. Napoleonics - rows of boring to paint blue guys fighting rows of boring to paint red guys - I find a complete snorefest but it's a very popular genre.
I thought if I articulate 'problems' with boardgames I might get some good suggestions of mechanics that make them good - and have fun defending why they are rubbish...
-eM
Napoleonics bore me to tears, and I don't have time or space for rank and file anymore. It's all about skirmish games for me, due to space, time, etc. At this point I think even "large skirmish" like the Rampant games are too many models for me :(
DeleteIt's ok not to like board games. I'm not evangelizing either. Dry euros bore me too. There's an element of snobbery to them.
Wow, I've read this blog for years and I've never seen you rage bait before! I love it!
ReplyDeleteI also totally disagree with the majority of your post, but that's the fun of rage baiting. We'll done and I hope that was cathartic!
In a world of online digital and now AI let’s celebrate the fact that wargames on dining tables!? and boardgames on coffee tables!? Are both capable of analogue life, random interaction and a human aspect. I am excluding chess as that has always been scary :)
ReplyDeleteChess is an online PvP strategy game, not a tabletop boardgame. Hasn't been so since chess.com
Delete- GG
1.The toys suck.
ReplyDeleteI mostly agree with that. There are a few exceptions to this rule where the components are very interesting. From a miniatures perspective, the Mythic Battles games offer a huge number of detailed miniatures (around 50, I think) for around 130€. Sure, the foot soldier models are often redundant, but the heroes, monsters and gods make up for that with their quality. For children, at least the meeples hold some interest (and the Carcassonne tiles).
2. Boardgames are better if you just want to play, not paint!
I agree that the board gaming hobby is more one dimensional. You get out the board game, you play and that’s it. You can look for tactics on the internet in between games, but everybody will hate you for this (I speak from personal experience…as I was a regular visitor of Boardgamegeek in the past).
There are also a lot of board game adaptations to Mobile/Tablet/PC which seem to be popular. You can really speed up the playing process. For example, when I play a game of Terraforming Mars with physical copy, I need at least 2 hours for a 3-player game. I can get through such a game on the PC in 30 minutes. So, it seems that digital versions of board games do have some popularity.
I completely agree that board games mostly aren´t memorable. The most memorable ones for me are often confrontational, bordering on wargame territory. I still remember how I conquered Moscow with my Japanese troops in Axis & Allies or how I invaded Berlin via the Baltic Sea with the British. In comparison, I don´t remember any euro game play. They are bland as f…, but I still played a lot of them…
3.Boardgames are about lame topics
I mostly agree, especially euro games where the topic is just tacked on a combination of mechanics and has nothing to do with the game. More confrontational games often have more interesting topics, e.g. historical games like Axis & Allies or Nexus Ops, which is a king of the hill board game with up to four player vying for control of a planet and its resources. Sometimes they also have awesome topics and butcher the topic with a bland game, like Masters of the Universe Battlegrounds, a bland skirmish puzzle with He-Man miniatures. I would say that He-Man would be ideal for story driven wargaming, like Pulp Alley, but an arena fight puzzle….NO WAY!
Kingdom Death: Monster has awesome toys which offer a better painting experience than anyone aside from Japanese garage kit manufacturers like Volks or Kotobukiya, but at a much more accessible price point (except for Volks IMS). The survival horror theme is also very strong.
Delete- GG
There is a subgenre of board games which seem like a package of cool miniatures with a rule set tacked on (e.g. Mythic Battles, KDM, everything from CMON, MOTU, etc.). While the miniatures are sometimes very good quality (KDM), the rest of the conponents are often very bland and not immersive. Also the rules often are lacking. I did not play KDM until now but a lot of CMON games and Mythic Battles. With the exception of Zombicide, I did not find them particularly exciting or even memorable.
DeleteKD:M has a ruleset which is far too involved and complicated to be considered 'tacked on'. KD:M is perfectly playable with standees or counters, but would still be enormous due to the page count and card count. KD:M is a RPG boardgame with bespoke model kits.
DeleteCMoN was very hit-and-miss for me. Of the original 3 seasons of the original Zombicide, I found S1 too simple, S2 overcomplicated, and S3 just right. Sedition Wars and Relic Knights didn't work for my group. Smog was well-themed, just not quite my thing. At that point, I got out of CMoN, although I probably should have backed Zc:White Death for the different theme.
- GG
"Wow, I've read this blog for years and I've never seen you rage bait before! I love it!"
ReplyDeleteI do warn everyone in the opening sentences....
-eM
I like how this blew up.
DeletePoint on KD:M selling a 28mm figure for $50 - KD:M sells a 35mm resin (lately photoresin) figure for $50 that vs a GW "28mm" injection plastic figure for $50. The KD:M figure has better details and proportions, albeit as fragile as cast Forgeworld. KD:M's resins are a far better value than GW, much less GW Forgeworld, although the KD:M resin figures are fundamentally for painters, not gamers.
It would be better to compare KD:M's monster expansion kits with GW's Knight Titan-class kits, and KD:M is very fairly priced.
- GG
I actually typed this while my kids where whinging about boardgames with the intent we could kid around in the comments and perhaps discuss some good boardgame ideas.
DeleteThe marble cake was an unexpected and welcome diversion...
-eM
The barrier of entry for KDM seems to be much higher than GW. The KDM boardgame is more than 400$, while GW sells its starter sets for much less. This makes KDM much less attraktive even though the quality and price of the miniatures may be even better.
DeleteComparing a GW starter to KD:M is kinda apples to watermelon. For a comparable GW experience, you need to look at a tournament-size army with rulebooks. If you're just looking to paint, KD:M is the way to go.
Delete- GG
Well, I play boardgames for a very different reason than I play wargames or RPGs. The focus in Boardgames is winning and losing and mastering mechanics. I do NOT do that in RPGs or Wargames because I want different things from those games.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I look forward to your take down of RPGs.
"There are also a lot of board game adaptations to Mobile/Tablet/PC which seem to be popular. ....seems that digital versions of board games do have some popularity."
ReplyDeleteDo they actually though? Would a tablet version of Catan sell make it into a top 50 competing with Clash of Clans/Cand Crush/Bejewlled/Pokemon/PUBG?
(I don't play phone games so I'm out of examples!)
Eric, I'm unlikely to attack RPGs as no one in our family forces me to play them so I don't feel strongly about them...
Most of my anti-boardgames arguments do not apply to RPGs. They often have awesome themes (which wargames could borrow) unconstrained by minis. Rules do tend to suck. Can use cool toys but tend to have far less of them - the focus is more on the fluff. If wargames are 50/50 cool toys/fluff RPGs tend to be more 20/80.
Hopping into character is (for me) very cringey - the sort of thing you do to entertain a Yr1 kid. The rules can be abstract. The players, too. Like Magic, they seem to attract people on the less socially competent end of the spectrum with a dismissive approach to body odour - i.e. they often live up to stereotypes from my experience.
I don't mind the idea of RPGs and they sometimes have narrative/ideas that help skirmish wargames.
I do hate D&D in particular - its awkward, clunky, gameplay makes 40K look like a smooth, sleek best-in-class. It's just bad.
-eM
Early D&D was much more like a skirmish wargame than what we nowadays define as an RPG, evolving out of Chainmail. Character creation was fast and simple because character death was real (The Temple of Elemental Evil is famous for being deadly as hell). It was more like a push your luck dungeon crawl than pretending to be an elf mage (or whatever else). The focus was more on playing the game than playing a role. No wonder, this old style of play has experienced a renaissance with the OSR (Old School Renaissance). It sounds much more exiting than play-pretend to be someone else. Which edition of D&D are you referring to, if you mentioned that the rules are bad? I started with 3rd Edition and never had any problems with the rules.
DeleteWell put, Vader! D&D 1E was the "Heroes" version of Chainmail, and you're right that character death was everywhere if played properly. The endgame was to become a Lord with a castle or wizard's tower.
DeleteGood point on PYL, though D&D evolved to the notion of Epic levels in 2E, and that fundamentally changed the game design.
D&D 3E is probably the best version, cleaning up the clutter and bloat from 2E.
Pathfinder is a good throwback to 1E.
- GG
You are a conservative stick in the mud who is stuck on that middle earth miniature game and hasn't had an original idea for the past half decade or so :-) That's allright, you wouldn't want to be anything else.
ReplyDeleteMe gustan los juegos de mesa, y los wargames son parte de ellos. No necesito juguetes brillantes para entrar a un juego, puedo jugar con trocitos de cartón y disfrutar igual o más.
ReplyDeleteValoro los juegos con mecánicas interesantes ¿El ajedrez es una mierda porque sus figuras son feas? No lo creo.
Además si diseñas juegos creo que puedes usar mecánicas interesantes de juegos de mesa para trasladarlas a un juego de guerra.
Entrar a un juego de guerra por las figuras...no sé, no es lo mío. Entras al juego con el hype a tope para luego jugar dos partidas y que ya no vea mesa nunca más.
También pienso que en un juego ha de atraerte por su trasfondo, y quizás hay quien quiera representar a un trabajador en una fábrica antes que a un general de brigada.
Creo que no tienes un problema con los juegos de mesa, tienes un problema con que tu esposa te obligue a jugarlos ¿Quizá un artículo sobre ella en lugar de sobre los juegos de mesa?
MM
Hola MM. (I'm a Spanish speaker from Argentina, but I'll write in English out of courtesy to the rest of the readers, I hope you don't mind).
DeleteI mostly agree with your opinion, except I think you're downplaying the appeal of models too much. I have played games using only bottle caps instead of minis, and it's always fun to make your own standees and use bottles and shoe boxes as terrain, but...
.... wargaming is also a visual hobby. Lots of us also care about the models themselves, obsess about paintjobs, conversions, etc. I think this aspect should not be downplayed.
Where we agree is that there's a whole breed of games with cool minis and barely any interesting gameplay, usually churned out by CMON and similar companies. I think we can all agree there's nothing to those games except the models, which is disappointing.
(Though in CMON's defense, Zombicide is actually a fun game and passes the most important bar there is: it sees a *ton* of play time with my group of friends).
Hola Andy, un placer.
DeleteEscribo en Español porque mi inglés es pésimo y más aún escrito, confío en que los angloparlantes lo lean en su idioma usando el traductor como yo lo hago.
Si pudiera escribiría en inglés como lo haces tú, pero creo que aún me entenderían menos. Mis disculpas por adelantado a los no hispanoparlantes.
Entiendo lo que dices, las miniaturas y el aspecto visual son importantes, y el hobby es muy amplio. Entiendo y respeto que haya gente que le guste pintar, el kitbashing y el modelismo, pero para mí es esencial que las reglas funcionen.
No estoy en contra de nadie que disfrute de ver una mesa con miniaturas y de los dioramas, etc. Pero pido el mismo respeto a los que disfrutamos con fichas de cartón o chapas.
En mi opinión, los wargames son casi un nicho dentro de otro nicho, y este tipo de discusiones me molestan porque en lugar de estar unidos y respetar que hay diferentes juegos para diferentes públicos, nos estamos enfrentando por cosas que desde mi punto de vista son tonterías.
Es mucho más sencillo y educado decir "esto no es para mí" que echar mierda a lo que no nos gusta.
Gracias por responderme y un saludo a todos los Argentinos desde España, donde sois muy queridos.
MM
100% de acuerdo, los wargames son un nicho dentro de un nicho, y está bueno que convivan todos los gustos y opiniones!
DeleteAbrazo!
Funny stuff. Personally, I like boardgames because they tend to play faster with far less overhead all around. I'm willing to increase abstraction for smoother gameplay.
ReplyDelete- GG
Muy buena respuesta.
DeleteMM
ReplyDeleteI understand your article, but I do not understand your intolerance. I can accept that you may dislike something, and you are fully entitled to choose not to play certain games.
Setting aside hobby aspects such as painting or converting miniatures, a game is more than the sum of its components.
Buying a wargame solely for its miniatures is like buying a magazine only for its insert, and your article reads like doing exactly that and then ranting against the people who actually read those magazines.
Personally, I find your design perspective extremely narrow and confined to a system I would not describe as classic, but rather as archaic. I believe you have become stuck in your comfort zone and are unwilling to open yourself to new experiences; it is easier to criticize than to make an effort to understand something unfamiliar.
I do not share your point of view, and the design of your games (I have been reading your blog for quite some time, although until now I had not felt inclined to comment) strikes me as closed-off, outdated, and in many cases offering very little to the hobby.
I sincerely hope you enjoy your games. I have personally had many great experiences with board games, and if you have not, it may simply be because those games are not for you or because you do not understand them. From there to launching such a tirade against certain games strikes me as a clear lack of respect.
+1 to you. I am left unsure if you got "whooshed", have made an elaborate joke or are just not fun at parties...
Delete:-/
-eM
First of all, thank you for the +1.
DeleteYour response makes it clear that you have assessed me in much the same way you assess board games: superficially, and through a lens of ignorance and prejudice. Needless to say, I do not share your standards.
I was merely reading this blog. Thank you, and best of luck—if you intend to continue down this road, I suspect you will require a considerable amount of it.
This post reminds me of my rants against Marble cake when I was a baker. Hyperbole for dramatic effect with an uncomfortable core of truth to it. :)
ReplyDeleteI think arguably the only core of truth here is "eM doesn't enjoy boardgames as much, but must play them because his wife does like them."
Delete(Which is valid!)
Everything else lies between false/arguable.
- Boardgames can be very thematic.
- Boardgames can tell memorable stories, and often do with the right game and group of friends.
- Boardgames can look like very cool/expensive toys too. Visual appeal is all the rage in the modern scene.
The modern boardgaming subculture is actually very snobbish and opinionated, and would rip this blog post to shreds if they got wind of it...and they'd have good reasons, too ;)
Ultimately I agree with MM above: let's learn to live all together instead of clashing over minor/subjective things (but it'sok to say "this isn't for me", otherwise no opinion could be uttered). Its a big, encompassing hobby.
Also, marble cake is one of my favorites :D
DeleteMy granny used to make it, and I have fond memories of it. I still order it whenever I go to a coffee shop, but of course, quality varies. I never made one myself, I'm sure it cannot be too difficult!
To be fair, marble cake is bad cake. It's nothing special, when Red Velvet exists. Muahahaa!
DeleteSchwarzwälderkirschtorte is the best of the traditional European cakes, where Carvel's ice cream cakes are the best of modern American, and Chinese mixed fruit cakes are a great alternative.
Iif you're a baker, you should be working on replicating Lord Stowe's Portugese-style Egg Tarts from Macau - they're the most delightful small treat, far better than the typical Eclair or Napoleon with heavy filling.
- GG