In videogames there is something called gamefeel or game juice - the intangible 'feel' when interacting with videogames. It's a mix of control response, visuals, and sound - kinda perceptual feedback. It's the sense of immersion, control, satisfaction in a game. All pretty intangible. (Worth a google if it sounds interesting)
Note: I feel the following post is rather poorly explained without a good orientation, linking and labelling key points, or conclusion. For a more coherent attempt on this topic, see here.
I tend to like to pry apart wargame mechanisms. I know what I like, which colours my opinions (and conclusions), but I am interested in X + Y = XY - coming to conclusions like "reaction mechanics increase engagement, but increase complexity (more "if-then") and can actually slow the pace of the game." I may LIKE reactions (my preferences) but they are not always the best solution if you want to keep things simple and snappy. Generally, I explore things you can check, or debate.
But gaming with my 8 year old has me thinking about intangibles. Preferences.
My wee lad likes chugging lots of dice. I tend to regard big piles of dice with suspicion - a bit of a chore. Was there a more efficient way to do this? But he says: "lots of dice - w000t - this is gonna be epic!" For him, there's something about the feel of flinging handfuls of dice.
Take dice types. For example, I dislike d20s. They seem so swingy, so tiny, so hard to read. I get WHY they can be used (lots of variables in a single roll, convenient 5% increments, good for say fantasy where stats can vary vastly) but I just don't like the feel of using them. I can acknowledge they may be the best option in many games, but I just don't like the feel of using them.
I like d10s a bit more. Easier to use, nice 10% increments, a nice middle ground. My opinion: More games should use d10s. But I find myself thinking in % in a more clinical math-y way when I use them.
I like a nice handful of d6s. They're familiar, friendly, cube-y. There's something when you see snake eyes (1s) or box cars (6s) that evokes a feeling of thrill/dread that a 0 or a 9 on a d10 just... doesn't. Likewise I don't enjoy games where rolling low is good. Especially on d6s. I just have a weird moment when I see the dreaded '1' and then realise "oh - that's good - I succeeded? Riiight."
d4s are just crap. Little pointy pyramids. They aren't dice but bunches of numbers painted on triangles.
These are my feelings about dice. Objectively, there are games/mechanics when using each dice may be best practice - but I'd prefer never to have to use d4s - ever.
I also dislike adding dice together (2d6). In fact any major adding or subtracting kinda pulls me out of the game while I 'math.'
I'm not a fan of the rather common 2d6: it's worse, as it creates a bell curve of results, which if rolling to beat a target number, kinda goes 3%, 8%, 17%, 27%, 41%, 58%, 72%, 83% etc - rather than a smooth 10%, 20%, 30% etc - where modifiers can push you past a certain break point i.e. the difference between a 2 and a 4 (+2 modifier) is 15%; the same +2 gap on a 6 would make a 31% swing. A +2 bonus has a variable value. That would be fine if the game was designed around a bell curve (like Fudge dice) but sometimes 2d6 are a carry over from when d10 were not invented and it's an unwanted side effect.... (*cough* Battletech Alpha Strike *cough*) ...at which point I'd say it is objectively bad.
But these are preferences. What I think 'feels right.'
I'm not just talking about physical interactions and dice. This includes mechanics.
My son tosses dice haphazardly. A dice box is $30+. So I made my own using a $3 wooden picture frame. My daughter: "Why is the blade broken?" My son: "Umm - it's Isilduir's sword, the one they reforged?" ...I have amended my Will accordingly.
My guilty admission:
Saving throws are usually, objectively, a needless extra roll. Clunky, bad design.
You know the pattern: #1 attacker roll to hit #2 attacker roll to see if damage; #3 defender roll to save. I'd say objectively this is clumsy design. Why do an extra step? It's like #2 and #3 are kinda duplicating each other. Why roll to do damage, when you then roll again and undo it?
I'd say extra saving throws are generally a sign there's something wrong with step #2 (doing damage) - perhaps there's not enough variables on the dice - you should be using d10s not d6s, for example.
However I love the feel of a saving throw - it has drama. To pick up the dice and deny your opponent with a '6' and see the anguish on their face is pretty funny. The tense feeling you have when your opponent picks up the dice - DID you kill his hero or is he about to Houdini? I feel kinda gives the player being attacked a sense of agency. (Note: it would be objectively more streamlined if you could allow the opponent to roll the damage dice from #2 and skip #3 - similar effect, without an extra roll). However many players will hate saving throws, and I totally understand - logically, they're probably correct to want them gone!
With saving throws, I have the guilty feel when I read a Lee Childs novel or watch something like The Meg. I feel I'm losing brain cells when I do it - but it's kinda fun.
I hate things that drag me out the the game. If I have to stop to look up a rule, or consult a chart, or (duh duh dah) tick off hitpoints (<- you all knew this was coming) it kinda kills the flow. Chatting with opponents, commiserating over dice rolls - fine. Expected of a social game involving chance. Paging frantically through a rulebook to look up an obscure special rule? I curse the game designer. This actually links with videogame gamefeel - immersion - akin to having to pause and check a menu every few minutes, or having an obtrusive HUD or annoying cringe voice over. I'd argue this can be objectively bad, if it was avoidable by the game designer.
Anything that drags me away from the table, my toys, or makes me do maths/writing feels like work.
Hopefully you have an idea of what I am trying to describe. The feel of the game.
It's not something tangible.
We're largely talking about preferences here (which we can measure) - or perhaps the conjunction of a range of preferences and mechanics that makes a game 'feel' right for you. Sometimes a game has a good feel but the mechanics run contrary to your preferences. Why is that?
There are lots of elements that contribute to the overall feel of a game. It could be anything from the dice you use (buckets), immersive mechanics that 'get' the spirit of the genre (reactive shootouts in a modern firefight, grinding Greek shieldwalls), flowing gameplay, or even a favourite mechanic (like saving throws) that you might say is objectively bad.
Q1: What is a game you enjoy - that you really 'feel' immersed in? That 'hits the spot'?
Now, because I can't resist analyzing... can we quantify why?
Q2: What elements of the game make it so?
For example, blog readers will know I enjoy ME:SBG. This is a good example as it's nothing impressive. No mechanics stand out. It does nothing innovative. It's a 20-year-old, streamlined 40K-esque game with a more interactive activation, individual minis moving rather than squads, and a resource management system for heroes (might/will/fate) grafted on top.
I like it because it is simple (I preferred the even leaner LotR:SBG) but has 'just enough' depth - there's decisions but not the relentlessness/lethality of say Infinity. It allows you to play scenes from the books and movies, emphasizing cinematic, heroic deeds which even non-gamer Tolkienites can appreciate. There are few 'gotcha' rules and you can usually guess what a mini is capable of. It has a point system so you can balance your own homebrew scenarios. It handles a wide range of 10-40 minis easily - sitting flexibly in a weird spot between true skirmish (Necromunda) and platoon-ish games (40K). As a bonus, you can use the rules to play ancients, medieval and even pike/musket with little adjustment and you actually use shieldwalls etc. Official GW support is 'barely there' but there is a vast supply of 3D printing to fill every gap; and it's probably good in a way, as we've had 2(?) editions in 20 years which means no perennial arms race.
Is it a good game? Eh. I'd say it is objectively more streamlined and balanced than say 40K, and has more strategy, decision points, balance and less 'gotcha' moments. But it isn't really an amazing game. I could say there are, objectively, better mechanics for most areas - and the methods aren't consistent. However, it has the right 'feel', it's fun and its simple old-school mechanics combine fine to do the job. For me, it's greater than the sum of its parts. Maybe it's nostalgia?
The game-feel is good, although the individual elements do not necessarily align to my preferences.
----
Sometimes I think we conflate with what we like with what is most logical or best practice. Just because you hate stats doesn't mean a game with one stat and many hundred special rules is objectively simpler/better. Just because you might hate hitpoints doesn't mean there isn't a place for them. I like reactions, but not every game benefits from them (most, arguably, don't). I like new fresh mechanics but I acknowledge most folk prefer familiar ones - they are easier to learn. I think activation is one of the most important aspects of the game. Many people don't care. Some people hate having any morale rules. What we like isn't always the most efficient/innovative/simple/tactical option etc. And that's OK.
When I dig into games, I tend to view 'best' as the smooth, consistent rules with a good balance of decisions for the player. But best is actually the most fun. So...
What are your favourite games? Why?
This is more about what you like. What has a good game feel? What games are immersive? And what elements do you think makes it that way? Also: Does it have flaws? Is the game good despite itself?
More than describing the feel of games, you are discussing your own feelings about various mechanisms, this is really a post of preferences, not about game feel. I don't think these are the same thing at all. Game feel is more objective, and varies from game to game depending on design. Some games are fast & require constant attention to the tabletop and what others players do, others are slow by nature with lots of checks... You may like one or the other, but regardless of that the game has an inherent feel. Preferences typically don't change from game to game, they're pretty constant. You have yours, and I often post mine here and while they can be the opposite of each other, they don't seem to change much.
ReplyDelete"...this is really a post of preferences, not about game feel. I don't think these are the same thing at all."
DeleteQ: Can you elaborate? How would you define game feel?
I'm taking it to mean how satisfying it is to interact with the game; to convert from videogames - how engaging it is, the input (dice, how rolled, actions/decisions you can take etc), response (resolution mechanics), context (background, terrain) - each of which you have preferences towards.
"You may like one or the other, but regardless of that the game has an inherent feel."
Q: So.... give an example of a game that had a specific feel? What elements contributed to that?
-eM
Compare the old Warhammer Fantasy Battle to Age of Sigmar for example. The tighter movement rules and blocks of troops gave it an entirely different feel from the more skirmishy AOS, even if you play them with the same actual number of models.
DeleteSo here's what I like in my gaming experience:
ReplyDeleteI want surprises, make-or-break moments, decisive combat and clear odds. And movement. No static sniping from behind cover please! I also like a certain efficiency. If you can get the end effect with 1 roll, that's good. Saving throws or opposed rolls are gimmicky nonsense. I love 2D6, the jump in probablities and the big impact of modifiers. I don't care much about fine granularity. Other dice are ok, as long as it's not too many of them. I'm unimpressed by the D10.
In rules, simple and elegant in a chess-like manner is nice. Of course we're not playing chess, so I also like a layer of resource management. I don't care for extensive list building. Special rules are fine, but in general, write your game so that it can be learned. A good game is one which after a couple of plays you can largely do by heart, with just the odd glance at a concise reference sheet.
I wish miniature games were more gamey (as board games are), and less attempts at simulation. Realism doesn't rate very highly in my gaming preferences. Obviously I'm not a committed historical gamer.
Q:Have you got any games that epitomise this?
DeleteQ:Is there a game which perhaps contradicts your specific preferences yet is still fun/rewarding?
E.g. I enjoy Gaslands as a really thematic game (metaphor), but plays slowly and stress/hazard tokens build up slowly (input/response).
-eM
Board games can be very good simulations. Axis and Allies is pretty good for what it is. Same with nearly every Richard Borg card & colors game, although I very much enjoy fantasy BattleLore over the historicals. Even Monopoly is a solid simulation of raw capitalism.
DeleteYes, boardgames can be good simulations, but often they're not designed with that in mind, whereas miniature game designers often start from a (imagined) reality they want to translate into rules.
DeleteI don't have any single perfect game, but Rogue Planet probably comes closest. Its movement and counteraction rules make it possible to actually surprise an inattentive opponent with an unexpected manoeuvre, something nearly impossible in, for example, classic Warhammer Fantasy Battle. It has clear & concise rules, resource management in the form of the combined hit points pool and a limited but flexible enough unit builder you use for all forces. And it has the 2D6 :-) There are some things I'm not so fond of, but you don't have to use them. That is also a plus.
DeleteI also enjoy X-Wing and Marvel Crisis Protocol, even though they have way too many special abilities, too many of which are only minor variations on each other and completely lack the possibility to create your own spaceships or superheroes from scratch.
Oh, and the custom dice in X-wing & Marvel Crisis Protocol. I *really* hate that sort of thing. To make it worse, you throw lots of them :-))
DeleteI have definitely run into a disconnect of preferences in my game desgins. I recall doing an interview on Little Wars TV about Men of Bronze, and I told them that Historical Accuracy was not my #1 goal, it wasn't even my second goal. It barely made my top 10. They were a bit stunned by this admission. I was focusing more on the game aspect than they were expecting for a "historical rules set".
ReplyDeleteI also recall a discussion with another podcast about the Men of Bronze support rules that they hated. I spoke to Decision Making being the number 1 goal and how the support rules were designed to generate decision points within the game. Their response was, "We would never take the risk to support like that, it is too risky!" Well, that was a choice but their preferences led them to fundamentally misunderstand the reason behind the mechanics.
There is a lot of preference in the gaming world. Worse, many folks don't tell you their preferences when they review a game. That does not help me much as a reader/viewer. I know that the reviewer and I probably like different things.
I'm kinda interested in how the overall 'feel' of a game (intangible - sense of immersion, satisfaction) is the sum of its parts/elements (which are).
DeleteWe have preferences in mechanics, dice etc - but sometimes we like the overall game-feel of games which do none of them.
I've been watching a lot of DVDs lately in my shed TV, and sometimes a movie with individual elements I should love (Reign of Fire - dragons, choppers, tanks, axes, post-apoc) kinda sucks.
Tenet (very earnest but gobblegook science) is something I shouldn't have loved, but I did.
Are there wargames you SHOULD love (based on your preferences) that you don't - and why? Is their a favourite game you shouldn't love, but do?
Or do all games you find engaging/satisfying all align to your preferences.
I'm interested between the relationship between overall gamefeel (engagement satisfaction in the game/movie) and mechanics (elements that comprise it).
-eM
Jupiter Ascending on paper should be an amazing movie, but it is less than the sum of its parts. That is the gold standard of movies that should be great, but just don't pull it together.
DeleteAs for games, yeah there are a lot. I typically find there theme or concept very compelling, but the mechanics in play just don't do it for me at all. Broken Legions, Chosen Men, This is Not a Test, Strange Aeons, Dracula's America, etc.
Meanwhile, based on what I like about games I should not like GWs Kill Team at all. It has hit points, it starts within shooting distance so there is no maneuver, special rules galore, 360 vision, free movement, Game as Product gimmicks, GWs flavor of the month marketing, and so many more flaws. Yet, it is easily the game I play the most. Despite everything stacked against it, I enjoy it.
"Jupiter Ascending on paper should be an amazing movie, but it is less than the sum of its parts."
Delete^ This is what I am trying to explore but didn't properly in the OP
"I typically find there theme or concept very compelling, but the mechanics in play just don't do it for me at all. Broken Legions, Chosen Men, This is Not a Test, Strange Aeons, Dracula's America, etc."
^^ Yes! This was what i failed to convey but was looking for.
"Meanwhile, based on what I like about games I should not like GWs Kill Team at all. ...hit points, ...no maneuver, ...special rules galore, ...360 vision, ..... and so many more flaws. Yet, it is easily the game I play the most. Despite everything stacked against it, I enjoy it."
Yes. This is a game with good game-feel - which you enjoy. I'd like to explore WHY you like it regardess (how does it overcome the flaws) but I did a really bad job of explaining. I might do a post #102B and make things clearer.
Sorry!
-eM
Obviously, this post generated a lot of thoughts. That or it is a slow day at work?
ReplyDeleteSometimes, when I think of "Feel" of the game I think a lot about how it presents itself in game. I was watching Rule of Carnage and they talked about why having photos and illustrations in rules mattered so much, and why doing both was optimal.
One of the key reasons to show photos was to help the player understand what the "world" you were creating and recreating on the table was suppose to look like. Think of Carnevale. If you took those rules and played without the canals and Venice backdrop; you would lose the "Feel" of the game completely. The rules would function fine though.
I am probably blurring a line between "Look" and "Feel" here. However, I think the experience the game is supposed to deliver is partial in the presentation too.
"Look" is an element of game feel.
DeleteI probably need to do a new post as I really feel I missed a step explaining. Sorry!
-eM
I think you hit on something at the heart of your post on new rules with great fluff and aesthetic but poor rules. If the rulebook can convey theme heavily enough players with an interest in that theme will usually find a way to enjoy the game in spite of it using disliked mechanics or even poor design - there's obviously a breaking point where nothing can save bad enough rules.
ReplyDeleteIf there's an abundance of options in a genre people can be more picky - I know people who disliked early Infinity before the special rules blew up because it didn't convey what they wanted in a sci-fi skirmish game compared to Necromunda (still being played after how long!). Others quickly embrace Frostgrave despite a lack of tactical depth because the theme was so strong.
TL:DR I think feel comes through both mechanics and presentation. If the presentation is strong enough we will fill in the gaps in our imaginations as we push little dolls around a table going "pew-pew" and enjoy the game as a whole.
Aesthetic is an element of game feel.
DeleteOnly I didn't (and should have) explained it. Someone pointed out it this post seemed to be all about mechanics/preferences and they were right - I was supposed to link how game feel and mechanics/preferences tie in. And didn't. Well, I did in my head but the post doesn't show it!
The issue with typing out your thoughts - its kinda a one sided conversation until the comments - and by then it's too late to easily clarify!
-eM
No puedo responder directamente las preguntas que me hace. Lo que más he jugado es Battletech, DBA, Heroes of Normandy, Warhammer Fantasy (desde las ediciones 4 a 7), Mordheim y Warmaster.
ReplyDeleteTambién jugué las versiones fanmade de Warhammer Manuscritos de Nuth (fuertemente basado en la edición 6 de Warhammer) y Warmaster Revolution.
El Señor de los Anillos de Games Workshop es un gran juego y aunque jugué poco, me gustó mucho; aunque si se trata de sensaciones, creo que Warmaster me hizo sentirme como un general al mando más que otros juegos.
Otros juegos que he jugado (aunque poco o como invitado) y recuerde con cariño son Battlemasters (qué recuerdos), Space Hulk, Heroquest, Frostgrave, Gorkamorka, Infinity y Kill Team (sí, algunos no son un wargame, lo sé. Me apetecía ponerlos).
Me gusta mucho Mayhem (y Brent Spivey me parece un gran diseñador) pero no hay jugadores por mi zona y apenas jugué unas partidas con algunos amigos.
Actualmente juego con un grupo cerrado de cinco jugadores, viejos jugones desencantados (personas entre 40 y 55 años), con reglas caseras que son un refrito de muchos juegos. Esto nos permite a todos sacar el diseñador que llevamos dentro y llevar a la mesa ideas descabelladas que nos hacen divertirnos.
En cuanto a preferencias:
-Me gusta tirar pocos dados y usar diferentes tipos de dados.
-No necesito más pelusa/ trasfondo que lo necesario para que mis juguetes de plástico parezcan "estar vivos".
-Prefiero la fantasía y la ambientación medieval o antigua.
-No busco realismo o simulación, pero sí un poco de coherencia.
Si tuviera que responder (aunque con pegas) sería Warmaster Revolution. Su sistema de mando me hace sentir como un general al mando de muchas tropas (sin logística y esas cosas) y creo que ese es el objetivo del juego. NO digo que sea el mejor sistema de reglas, sino el que me supo transmitir mejor su idea.
Un saludo.
MM
You've somewhat answered the question - I didn't ask it properly so its my fault.
DeleteWarmaster = made you feel like a general, immersed you = game-feel
I'm interested in the mechanics that lead to that game-feel.
I'll either fix this post or do a v2 so I'm more clear - it's my fault for not being clear.
-eM
^^^^^^^^^ STOP PRESS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
ReplyDeleteI'm back from two days away, and I've just reread the blog post and realized I missed the mark.
I was supposed to make 3-4 points and link them but kinda made only 1
*I did a terrible orientation
*I didn't explain the game-feel properly/link how it is made up of mechanics we like/don't, but game-feel sometimes seems to exist independently of these mechanics
*I didn't conclude it properly with a TL:DR
*I was interested in what games have good game-feel, and wanting people to ID mechanics that comprise it, but just said "whats ur fave game bruv"
I'm in two minds whether to
(a) edit this post a lot and add in the missing bits (even huger wall of text)
(b) do a #102B with a cleared up version
Sorry!
-eM
If vote for you writing a 102b. Though this didn't come across as planned I think the original post and all the discussion it spawned will be worth being able to come back to in the future.
DeleteYour wish is granted...
Delete-eM