There's a lot of differing opinion on how much fluff, background and world building a wargame must do.
Few people are attracted to a game based on mechanics (the how); usually, they are attracted to the game by the background/world/miniatures (what, why). Often we play a game despite the rules - or merely put up with them. So we could argue background/world/aesthetic is more important than mechanics in attracting players.
There is a huge range of personal opinion here: some will prefer "just the rules, ma'am" and no more than a paragraph or two orientating them to the wargame world; others love deep background narrative and lore to drive their games. The most popular wargame (40K) makes it hard to suggest that innovative rule mechanics matter more than shiny toys and cool lore.
Now we've established lore and world building will be very subjective, but are usually very important....
My shower thought I am exploring is: How much worldbuilding is too much?
I am a huge reader; my personal man cave has many thousands of books, and my kids are huge readers too. I often read them "older" books and we like to discuss elements of the text. My kids like Brandon Sanderson, and while I don't enjoy his writing style, I do admire his worldbuilding, which tends to be consistent to its own internal logic and he seems to recognise his own enthusiasm for worldbuilding and make an effort to reign himself in. In contrast to say the magic of Harry Potter (which I'm reading to my 8 year old) which has no logic to it whatsoever.
However, thinking about this question (in context of books) lead to a second question:
Is the worldbuilding for the readers (aka player's) benefit, or the writers benefit (aka game designers)?
World building seems pretty self indulgent. The minute you have your own languages, and whole pages of maps, and your own encyclopedia - that's too far. Maybe when you're a legend like Tolkien who pretty much invented the genre and it's published after he dies due to the demands of fans... then OK.
A lot of time in books, world building is an excuse for a writer to waffle on, to create for his own enjoyment, oblivious to the eye-rolls of his readers.
Can there be too much world building?
I find Star Wars guilty of this. Everything has a name. Everything is explained in detail. Everything has its own Wookiepedia article. The more TV shows and movies they churn out exploring every last detail or every character, the less magic there is, for me anyway. Half the shows premises "What did Obi Wan do between Clone Wars and New Hope" answered questions no one really cared about to ask.
Background and aesthetic (cool lore, cool minis) is supposed to stimulate your wargaming. But can worldbuilding be harmful to creativity and imagination?
Googling around I found this wonderful quote by a sci fi editor:
Every moment of a science fiction story must represent the triumph of writing over worldbuilding.
Worldbuilding is dull. Worldbuilding literalises the urge to invent.
Worldbuilding gives an unneccessary permission for acts of writing
(indeed, for acts of reading). Worldbuilding numbs the reader’s ability
to fulfil their part of the bargain, because it believes that it has to
do everything around here if anything is going to get done.
Above all, worldbuilding is not technically neccessary. It is the great
clomping foot of nerdism. It is the attempt to exhaustively survey a
place that isn’t there. A good writer would never try to do that, even
with a place that is there. It isn’t possible, & if it was the
results wouldn’t be readable: they would constitute not a book but the
biggest library ever built, a hallowed place of dedication &
lifelong study. This gives us a clue to the psychological type of the
worldbuilder & the worldbuilder’s victim, & makes us very
afraid.
When I use the term “worldbuilding fiction” I refer to immersive
fiction, in any medium, in which an attempt is made to rationalise the
fiction by exhaustive grounding, or by making it “logical in its own
terms”, so that it becomes less an act of imagination than the
literalisation of one. Representational techniques are used to validate
the invention, with the idea of providing a secondary creation for the
reader to “inhabit”; but also, in a sense, as an excuse or alibi for the
act of making things up, as if to legitimise an otherwise questionable
activity. This kind of worldbuilding actually undercuts the best and
most exciting aspects of fantastic fiction, subordinating the
uncontrolled, the intuitive & the authentically imaginative to the
explicable; and replacing psychological, poetic & emotional logic
with the rationality of the fake.
~ M. John Harrison
Most wargame fluff is badly written. Usually by enthusiastic amateurs. So yeah, we don't want to give a bad writer "unecessary permission to write." Probably the only wargame-related books I've not minded were by Dan Abnett - which were fun - but only 'decent.' Harsh reality: Most wargaming background lore is just an excuse for an author to subject us to their bad writing.
Too much background removes the players ability to invent. If all 21 space marine legions have their entire history, heraldy and paint schemes - then it may constrain my creativity in making my own custom legion. It undercuts creativity. I enjoy MESBG but (because of the strong lore) I tend to feel compelled to either follow the movies or the official GW schemes - everyone knows what Gandalf and Aragon look like. It's why I'm unenthusiastic about Star Wars minis. Whereas I've never got into the Warmachine, or Confrontation much so my minis tend to be whatever the heck I think looks cool. Way more creative and fun.
Is worldbuilding technically necessary in wargames? To what degree? What is needed?
I'd say that RPGs, specifically, need world-building. In order to roleplay as an elven sorceress in Middleheim is; you need to know about elves, sorceresses and Middlehiem in general in order to properly inhabit your role. Like a method actor, the more you understand your role, the better you can play it. So players books exhaustively explaining every aspect of the RPG "world" seem quite sensible.
But a wargame is not quite the same. You are a commander, a general, a squad leader. You may need to know why you are fighting - although "cost wargs are cool" is all the reason my son needs - and that's fine. You probably need to know what tactics work best - what actions you take (input) will get the best result (output). But how much more do you need?
If the game is about WW2 and the game mechanics accurately represent this genre (this is where mechanics matter - it's called metaphor) you may not need much "how." Cos most people (especially the average wargamer) will have a fair idea of who is fighting who in WW2, and why. And they probably have a fair idea of what tactics will work, too. You probably don't need a lot of background if the topic is familiar and the metaphor (game mechanics/results match theme) works.
For more fantastical settings, you probably need more orientation/background; but what is actually needed? We know Cygnar and Khador are fighting. Do we need a series of maps of their countries topography? Are we 'exhaustively surveying a place that does not exist?' Do I really need a list of all engine brand-names in Battletech to have fun firing lasers at giant robots? It's indulgence on the part of the rules writer. Do they think their game universe is worth "dedication and lifelong study?" The Infinity guys (who admittedly are RPG fans first and foremost) are making a fantasy game (Warcrow). They obviously are passionate nerds but reading their design posts made me roll my eyes so hard I'm crosseyed. I really need to know the Inauguration of New Doctors for the Hegenomy of Embersig? To play a game where warbands hack each other up? This is The Great Clumping Foot of Nerdism. (Bonus irony points for them going to all this hassle, explaining their onerous worldbuilding - yet churning out mostly generic elf, dwarf, human factions)
Show Don't Tell - how do you do it for Wargames?
My daughter loves to write stories and has a great descriptive vocab and solid dialogue (for a kid.) However she loves to describe names, friends, places in exhaustive detail. When she shares her story:
"Excellent expressive words here, good dialogue here... but..." I pause.
"Show, don't tell?" she finishes.
Carnevale did a great job drawing an atmospheric, menacing Venice with Cthulhu, mad scientists and vampires, and heretic witch hunters. It did that well. It inspired me to paint many miniatures, and create custom warbands and terrain - it got me playing - success! ....But took 150 pages to do that.
Turnip 28 (Napoleonic horror with root vegetables - yes you heard correctly) rules were found on a free patreon after reading a Goonhamer article. I visited his artstation and found some more pics on another website. I probably viewed a few dozen pics all told, and read a few pages of text.
I'd say they created comparable atmosphere. Even if Carnevale did a better job, it took 20x more effort to get a similar result. 150 pages of background reading? Placed before the actual rules?
Show Don't tell means avoiding description (lots of exposition), you don't tell the reader outright, but allow readers to infer. You allow them to paint a picture using their imagination.
"Did you sleep last night? You look shot." <-show, infer, appeal to senses
Fred was tired. <- tell.
So how do we do this in a wargame?
The tell you need to avoid is obvious. Pages and pages detailing each and every last detail of each faction, technology, map, magic system. Anything more than a paragraph, that is not directly linked to playing the game (actual rules) I'd scrutinize very closely.
You can infer a lot from just the names and types of gear. "Flechette gun" vs "shotgun" I infer the game is sci fi. "Uplink node" vs "Sacred Crucible" gives you an idea of the genre without even looking at the cover. Renaming of stats into "Bashin" Shootin" "Guts" in custom way (much as it annoy me) can transmit info of the game theme (is this an orc game?). This is an example of how little things can transmit a 'feel.' (Aside: I wonder why rulebooks don't include more comic-styling, text boxes etc (which would allow more links to visuals) vs uninterrupted walls of text *cough* En Garde! *cough*)
For authors, to "show not tell," writers recommend appealling to senses (describe what the character sees, tastes, hears, smells etc) - in wargames, it's obviously all about what you see.
In a wargame, the "show" is obviously a focus on art, minis and style. It doesn't have to be done with elaborate artbooks (Infinity) or glossy magazines (40K) or amazing tabletop displays. Cool eye candy minis help - but are not essential.
Take "Space Weirdos" and Forbidden Psalm. I bet people have bought those books and built warbands and played - purely on some hipster artstyle and font that gave them a 'vibe.' I personally found neither the vibe nor gameplay of either appealed; but they are a great example of showing not telling - maximum 'feel' with minimum effort.
What are some of the tools (usually visual) that a rules writer has to engage readers in his background/world without reams of text? How do you 'show' and not 'tell?'
It's late, and I haven't really got a final conclusion here; everyone is going to have their own opinion on what is enough or too much background/lore/fluff. I guess I can do a TL:DR looking over all my current thoughts:
-World building/lore/shiny is probably the main hook into a game/reason to play; more than mechanics/rules; it's very important
-While lore/background is a main stimulus to players; too much world building can harm imagination/creativity; when the map is filled in, you can't imagine what might be in the blank spot
-World building is often self indulgent, unnecessary, and (in wargames) nearly always badly written: for the writers benefit, not the reader
-While RPGs might need detailed background info, wargames will need a lot less
-Show Don't Tell: convey the background/lore with as little text as possible (explore methods?)
-Pictures (artwork/visual elements/minis etc) do say 1000 words
Great topic that has generated a lot of rambling thoughts for me as well. In no particular order:
ReplyDelete- I need just enough of a sketch that I can then make my own corner of the game world. I prefer space to create my own stories and not be locked into the "Narrative" of the larger game. W40K use to be excellent at this, as was Star Wars. As both IPs have matured, they have tried to fill in and have restricted some of this space, which I do not like.
- Feel and theme is often what differentiates a solid game from a GREAT game.
- RPGs also do not NEED as much background as they give. All games need to give players space to create their own stories in them. They just need a jumping off point for players to create what they want.
- Words are cheap, art is not. I find the hardest part of the Game Design process is the post-production. Things like covers, art, pictures etc. However, these steps are both expected and necessary to give players the feel of the game and to help them visualize how to bring the game to life on the board.
- How do you imagine Model and Genre agnostic games deal with this?
"...just enough of a sketch that I can then make my own corner of the game world. ...space to create"
DeleteI think the 40K and SW are great examples over over-explained IPs.
- Feel and theme is often what differentiates a solid game from a GREAT game. - How do you imagine Model and Genre agnostic games deal with this?
A lot of model-agnostic toolbox games were out ~10 years ago. I don't see any of them around now (IRL or on net), nor play any of them. The successful ones tend to evolve and split off into many "thematic" subgames aka 101 versions of Song of Blades and Heroes BUT each has a strong theme aka "Gods & Mortals" warring gods, "Flashing Steel" three musketeers, etc.
I'd say the sensible ones aim for something like Zone Raiders - you can use any minis; just only in 'their' universe. You can keep your theme and "use any minis" as a selling point.
Short version: true generic toolbox games without ANY background don't seem to survive, unless grounded in a specific period like WW2, regardless of kewl mechanics.
"RPGs also do not NEED as much background as they give."
RPG writers are also BY FAR the most guilty of taking world building as licence to "inflict their imaginations and bad writing on you!"
I do think in general, a RPG would be expected to have far more worldbuilding detail that would be completely uneccessary in a wargame due to the latters far more narrow scope.
"Words are cheap, art is not. I find the hardest part of the Game Design process is the post-production. Things like covers, art, pictures etc"
-Friends who write novels are always bemoaning this!
-eM
As we've already seen, model agnostic games use whatever has sold the most! 25mm fantasy figures, 1/100 WW2 armor & infantry, Lego men & creations, 28mm Grimdark(tm) space soldiers and aliens, 1/144 scale WW1 aircraft, etc.
Delete...
DeleteGenre agnostic games would be like GURPS, . generic crap without any redeeming features whatsoever, nor any point to exist. All you get is a few resolution mechanics and a basic human statline. Being generic places the cart before the horse, forsaking the ability to use mechanics that are actually suited to the genre.
- GG
Model agnostic games are typically about familiar themes. grimdark space-fantasy, pulp adventure, superheroes, heavy metal barbarbic medievalism. They typically have a strong and clear theme you can easily find figures for. Perhaps it's better to call them miniature brand agnostic :-)
DeleteI don't like GURPS, but to be fair, you do get a lot of resolution mechanics and tons of examples of how they can be implemented. If you like crunchy rules and want to do the world building yourself, I can see the attraction.
Delete"true generic toolbox games without ANY background don't seem to survive, unless grounded in a specific period like WW2, regardless of kewl mechanics."
DeleteThey do survive, even thrive, under the hood, with designers reskinning them in various forms to sell them to the public. Almost every game publisher does this.
This sort of thing is really of interest only to people who care about rules and want to actively create stuff. It's not for players who want something ready made they don't have to put any effort in, and those are the vast majority of buyers.
"They do survive, even thrive, under the hood, with designers reskinning them in various forms to sell them to the public. Almost every game publisher does this."
Delete*Squints* But isn't that 'reskinning' the act of giving them a theme/background/world? Which means they aren't truly generic any more. E.g.
".....tend to evolve and split off into many "thematic" subgames aka 101 versions of Song of Blades and Heroes BUT each has a strong theme aka "Gods & Mortals" warring gods, "Flashing Steel" three musketeers, etc."
I don't see many of the "one skirmish ruleset for playing any minis, any era" that were common a few years back.
-eM
Uh, those "reskinned" games aren't exactly the same. 40k2 and WFB5 had similar engines, but the amount of special rules vastly outweighed the core. Same with BFG vs Epic. Or Flames vs 40k.
Delete- GG
What?!? Carnivale better done than Turnip28??? You must be joking, I think it's just the other way round.
ReplyDeleteTurnip28 is quirky & sketchy, its artwork & concepts stand out as unique, and leave lots of room to gamer's imagination. Carnivale's art is boring professional, its world building is typical gameworld stuff, too many words for too few original ideas. In themselves I'm not into either napoleonics or renaissance venice, yet Turnip28 stokes my imagination whereas Carnivale makes me want to throw away the pdf :-)
Needless to say, I disagree with much of your other ramblings here as well.
The main hook for games isn't world building or lore. It's shiny marketing glitz and cool toys, preferably in combination with the promise you'll be able to find players and that there will be a continuing stream of products for you to get excited over and buy.
Oh, and RPGs don't need extensive world building either. Like wargames, they only need to set the mood & theme, the rest can be done by players imaginations. And like in wargaming, commercially it's marketing glitz & shiny that sells, as well as general consumerist laziness.
"What?!? Carnivale better done than Turnip28??? Turnip28 is quirky & sketchy, its artwork & concepts stand out as unique, and leave lots of room to gamer's imagination. Carnivale's is too many words.... "
Delete-I feel in your rush to disagree, you didn't actually read the OP :-)
"The main hook for games isn't world building or lore. It's shiny marketing glitz and cool toys"
-I would consider the 'shiny' and cool toys part of the worldbuilding, like rulebook art, it is part of aesthetic (see Turnip28)
"Oh, and RPGs don't need extensive world building either."
-So you are saying they need equal/more/less worldbuilding than a wargame?
-eM
"I feel in your rush to disagree, you didn't actually read the OP :-)"
DeleteI did :-))
But only partially. You do claim that Carnevale did a better job in a certain way, I suppose in achieving a more "professional" look and feel, but that Turnip28 is more effective & efficient in a less is more way. Both are supposed to create comparable atmosphere.
And that's where I disagree. To me, Carnvale has no atmosphere at all. It looks professionally designed, but probably starting from commercial thinking and guided by marketing considerations all along the way, without real creative visions. It just screams Mordheim substitute. I place it squarely in teh category of Warcrow.
It also doesn't help I don't like most of the miniatures. That could just be the main thing :-)
"I would consider the 'shiny' and cool toys part of the worldbuilding, like rulebook art, it is part of aesthetic (see Turnip28)"
You could do that, but I was thinking specifically of written lore here. Initially, it only serves to create the impression of substance, of bang for your buck. Look at the huge block of text your getting! But potential buyers haven't yet read it, and when they do, some will inevitably be bored by it & quickly skim through. In the longer terms, it will help in keeping the hamsters on their wheels since you can keep churning out background material and mediocre novels.
"So you are saying they need equal/more/less worldbuilding than a wargame?"
It can absolutely work. It did for original D&D, for Apocalypse World, for Into the Odd.
I think a lot of this depends on your attitudee and what you want. If you're looking for something as a starting point or to stimulate your own or your player groups imagination, then limited world building is often better. If you want to participate in something bigger that already exists and that you can explore as a kind of traveller with a guidebook, or are just looking for entertainment, then extensive ready made worlds are more interesting. You can just sit back, relax and enjoy the view.
World building is absolutely necessary to the extent that a new player's role in world of the game differs from what they've already experienced. If we have a game about making sandwiches, there shouldn't be any world building required, because everyone can be expected to know how to make a sandwich. If it's about being the general in a Tolkien fantasy, one can reasonably assume that they've watched the LotR movies, but there's a big gap beyond that. And as one goes sci-fi, it gets worse, because one never knows just how far "science" has gone and what's now possible. There needs to be enough to explain who's fighting, why the fight occurs, and what can / can't be done.
ReplyDelete- GG
I'd say this reflects my preferences. The weirder the world is, the more explanation I'd expect.
Delete-eM
For the truely weird setting, sure, you need some explanation. But these settings are extremely rare. Most wargame settings are total clichés. They're built around familiar ideas from other media. Very familiar ideas. Take Carnivale again. there's nothing there that the average fantasy gamer is not familiar with. We have a pseudo-historical setting not that far removed from Warhammers Old World, there's witch huntersn vampires, criminal gangs that immediately call to mind the thieves guilds from D&D and classical fantasy... and there's Cthulhu, perhaps by now the best example of devalued weirdness that has become a standard household name. None of this requires extensive explanation.
Delete"Take Carnivale again. there's nothing there that the average fantasy gamer is not familiar with. None of this requires extensive explanation."
DeleteAbsolutely. If Turnip28 can have the same impact with a handful of pages, that takes 150(!) then it's probably for the benefit of the writer, not the reader. My dad used to say "A good explanation is like a bikini; it shows you everything, while only covering the essentials"
The Carnivale campaigns can even follow a timeline(!) - that's the 'clumping foot of nerdism' in what is often the most free-for-all, creative, emergent part of a wargame.
Links with the quote:
---"Worldbuilding numbs the reader’s ability to fulfil their part of the bargain, because it believes that it has to do everything around here if anything is going to get done."
-eM
My dad used to say "A good explanation is like a bikini; it shows you everything, while only covering the essentials"
Delete:-) that's a fantastic line!
Carnivale probably didn't need 150 pages, but it required something to be said of each faction, especially as Outer Gods are generally a completely different genre from Tolkien Fantasy, as with Vampire v Hunter, and whatever else was kitchen sinked in as factions. "But Mordheim" ... had the advantage of being a WFB spinoff, so we knew that vampires, witch hunters, Chaos Cultists, and Skaven already existed, with probably 150+ pages of background already written. For an all new game, one might assume something like Assassin's Creed, "but wait, there's more!" x5
Delete- GG
As much as I agree that Fluff is a secondary concern so that I can build the stories I want in game, we also have to realize that the folks here are not the general audience for wargames or RPGs.
DeleteI like to say, the problem with being a nerd is often having to deal with other nerds. BY and large, the communities and fandoms for these games and IPs WANT more rivet counting and more canon. They crave it, because they want to talk about it with others, and more importantly argue about what is "right" and "wrong"
Half the appeal of Warhammer (Fantasy and 40K), D&D, Battletech, and other big games have nothing to do with playing the game. These big games have lots of space for the players of the games to talk about the game and crucially, disagree about the game. That is what drives there success. They can be talked about 24/7 and disagreed about constantly. People spend more time talking about the games than they ever do playing them.
This discussion includes mechanics, tactics, expansions, scenarios, etc. but also background. The out-of-game discussion is even more important than the game itself for longevity. A self-contained game with no expansion has nothing to talk about and soon wears thin and gets shelved.
Games get shelved in some part due to the shiny wearing off. Novelty fades in all things, be it a game, a hobby, a job, or a relationship. Finding and keeping the spark is easier if it's constantly getting injections of more shiny, but it also puts the player and developer on a perpetual treadmill of chasing the shiny. There are diminishing returns as the unknown world shrinks, ultimately leading to needing a total restart, as we've seen in comics and Warhammer Fantasy.
Delete- GG
Like names of stats and gear, I think the section headings and the army lists as well, can reveal much about the background.
ReplyDeleteAs an example, looking at Frank Chadwick's "Soldier's Companion", the cover conveys easily 1000 words: Scarlet-coated British colonial troops with a train/tank hybrid belching black smoke in the background. But the location is ambiguous.
However, in the table of contents, I see under Army Lists, not just the continents of Earth, but headings of Venus, Mars and Luna - we're fighting on Earth and on other planets(if the "Space: 1889" in the upper-left of the cover didn't give it away). How do we get there? Not covered by the rules (at least not the wargame rules) and irrelevant. There are sections of the rules for Flyers (the kind used in combat) and Advanced Weapons that confirm advanced technology an age or two earlier than historical.
That they ramble on in the army list about the lizard folk in a way that completely ruins the setting for me does not lessen the usefulness of section headings conveying background. Seeing that there is a subsection of rules for "liftwood flyers" is all I need to know to understand the Martian flyers.
Speaking of rambling, your post has me rambling!
"Like names of stats and gear, I think the section headings and the army lists as well, can reveal much about the background."
Delete"I see headings of Venus, Mars and Luna.... How do we get there? Not covered by the rules (at least not the wargame rules) and irrelevant. There rules (themselves)... confirm advanced technology an age or two earlier than historical."
-What a great example. I think you nailed it - what is needed and what is irrelevant?
-A quick mention in a heading and you can infer (show not tell) means of space travel but including it in a set of ground based rules is irrelevant.
Your rambling is welcome (and helpful!) - that's the point of these posts!
-eM
The notion of wanting to have the option to Buy all the Things is understandable, as many gamers are compulsive completists who must have all the things for whatever game they enjoy. There's nothing wrong with that, although it's not really optimal as games grow unwieldy with too many expansions, and often lose whatever charm they had as a small, simple, affordable game.
DeleteIMO, better to buy a solid core game and maybe a couple well-themed expansions if you really love the game, rather than constantly chasing the New. The hard part is knowing which version & expansion(s) would be "best" in the absence of owning and trying them. For example, I got all 3 of the original Zombicide Kickstarters. As it turned out, I liked the 3rd best, finding the 1st too basic, the 2nd too artificially 'gamey', and the 3rd 'just right'. I ended up selling the 1st & 2nd, but I can't imagine how I'd have known that the 3rd would have 'clicked' without having them all to compare.
- GG
Absolutely agree that world building can stifle player creativity, but it can also help guide it to be consistent between gaming groups. For all it's numerous faults Warhammer has a shared, well understood universe and someone from the UK wouldn't be surprised at the scenarios or theme of a game they play while on travel to the US. However this has led to the loss of creativity in that universe where no one will play a human faction that isn't a group of raging homicidal xenophobes.
ReplyDeleteI miss the old GW days where there was enough works building to give a sense of the universe but still enough grey to build out your own section of the world without other people screaming "YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!!!" while writing book and page number of why X faction can't do whatever they're doing.
I think a consistent shared world HELPS creativity, as long as there are some gaps or grey areas.
DeleteAt my school I often do random activities; impromptu science pracs, math games on the oval. However: you need a very consistent routine/clear expectations to do this successfully; having every lesson as random is chaotic. You need a baseline of 'shared expectation.' You can't be 'creative' unless there is a shared 'normal.' I think I regard background/fluff the same way.
Which as GG says above - if there already is a shared normal - like a game about making sandwiches - then there is no need for much world building.
-eM
"Most worldbuilding fiction is badly written": EXACTLY.
ReplyDeleteMost game designers are not good fiction writers. That's why I prefer a barebones theme. No, I don't want to read the detailed history of the Kingdom of A'Erthafuflgungolfin and especially not about the invasion of Yrhrgs before they crowned King Yrfurf the First. You, author, are simply not a good writer. I've read lots of Fantasy books and can project what I want onto your rules. Don't write all that fluff 'cause its mere existence offends me.
A barebones theme is ok: "this is a dark medieval world with an invasion of cannibal elfs", ok, I can work with that. But please don't name the Elven King and especially do not draw detailed maps of the Wastelands or whatnot: I don't care.
Theme done right: Frostgrave, in my opinion. There is a frozen city full of magical treasure. Some named characters that can be ignored. Most enemies are archetypes. The maps of the city and its surroundings are up to you.
DeleteI hear Joe McCullough is planning more detailed lore (and maps) for the latest expansion of Rangers of Shadow Deep and I think that's a really bad mistake. I don't want to see maps of Alladore; that it's named Alladore is silly enough. "The Shadow Deep" was nicely and generically ominous, and it can mean whatever I want. But get more specific than that and I will zone out.
Zona Alfa is also good. Generic, vaguely Eastern European setting. There are stalkers and anomalies, what else do you need to know?
McCullough is just milking it for all it's worth. Both Frostgrave and Rangers of Shadow Deep were complete games in their initial form, they didn't need all those supplements and extra lore and stuff. But it's also true there's a consumerist audience out there that is looking for quick entertainment in the form of reading material. The sort of over development that turns of you & me is a big draw for some others.
Delete"complete games... ....didn't need all those supplements and extra lore and stuff. But it's also true there's a consumerist audience out there..."
DeleteI always find it weird that players worry if there is enough new stuff being released i.e. updates, supplements, codexes etc.
Who cares? Your game still works. It's not like it only works on Windows XP and you can't play it any more. Is it still fun? Play it. Is it boring? Play something else.
It's OK to get tired of games. I don't expect to play the one PC game for 10 years - why would a wargame be different?
I always chuckle at Steam PC reviews where they have played 500+ hours and they say "game sucks." Play anything for 500 hours and you may find it wearing thin/noticable 'cracks.'
I do worry if there is not stuff available that should be there i.e. GW is missing core units, that exist in its rulebook, that they no longer sell. That's annoying - previously available content being withdrawn.
I don't need them to constantly churn out new units, and in fact this often ruins games (again to use MESBG; a game that was quite balanced over 20 years and only 2 editions now gets "Legendary Legion" books - disguised codexes allowing new OP armies.)
It seems unwise for a mini manufacturer to have too many SKUs, but I suppose any indie rules agnostic wargame has no such issues.
Hmm bit of an OP rant, triggered by the "people need constant stream of new things" or "game is ded" I often see.
-eM
"...No, I don't want to read the detailed history of the Kingdom of A'Erthafuflgungolfin and especially not about the invasion of Yrhrgs before they crowned King Yrfurf the First. Don't write all that fluff 'cause its mere existence offends me."
DeleteI am going to borrow this line for later use I think :-P
-eM
Yes! Everything in this comment and responses!
DeleteOne thing I will say in defense of a couple of the Frostgrave supplements is the initial Osprey format required him to cut some things he wanted in there. The other 397 supplements are definitely hanging out shiny things to keep people attention - which when you're living off the income of it makes sense, but not when you're assessing the quality of the product.
> "which when you're living off the income of it makes sense, but not when you're assessing the quality of the product."
DeleteAgreed. I don't begrudge Joe for doing this, I understand he needs the income. I also thinks he genuinely cares about the games he designs, and is very supportive of the community around them.
This doesn't mean I have to like the endless expansions though.
> "I always find it weird that players worry if there is enough new stuff being released i.e. updates, supplements, codexes etc."
Yes. I first found this phenomenon with Blackstone Fortress, a characterful and fun "Quest" boxed game. People were worried about GW's future support, anxious about expansions, and even now you get questions in its fb page of the type "I can only find some of the OOP expansions, is this still worth getting?".
And I'm like "the core box is a damn good game, self contained and fun, why on earth do you care about expansions or support. Just enjoy the goddamn thing you already own or planning to buy, why this collector's mindset where you have to Buy All The Things or else you cannot enjoy playing with toy soldiers?".
500 hours... that's like watching a movie some 250 times :-) Yeah, you're probably ready to move on by then.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteEn ocasiones el exceso de worldbuilding viene por vender más productos o un ego desmedido.
Las miniaturas (o arte, juego muchos juegos hex and counter) deben introducirme en el juego. Si veo ropas victorianas y máquinas de vapor ya sé de qué me hablas, dime porqué nos pegamos y ya tengo suficiente.
El worldbuilding debe ser escueto, para un juego de guerra medieval en nuestro mundo... ¿Harías una descripción de cómo se creó el planeta Tierra y la aparición y evolución del hombre?
Cuando creó un juego o campaña de rol, creó mucho más material del que presentó en el juego, porque me ayuda a trabajar, pero no muestro a los jugadores más de lo necesario.
En España tenemos un dicho popular "Cuando algo es mucho, cansa".
Un saludo.
MM
Escribo en Español y el corrector me hace malas pasadas. Lo siento.
DeleteMM
Hi, I've made a few attempts to join the Google Group, and haven't been accepted. Would love to see your Middleheim rules. If the group's still active, could you please let me in? sanglorian@gmail.com
ReplyDeleteThe google group is minimally alive. That said, any rules would be v2 not the v10 or so I am up to...
DeleteI'll check in and accept though. Tbh, discord etc collaboration is probably the way of the future for game design. I'm just not energetic enough to be interested in/keep up with that format.
-eM
If Discord is the future, it's not for me. I need the slower pace of blog/forum posts. I cannot keep up with Discord and similar chat platforms, I get lost quickly (mind you: I use Slack for work, it's not that I don't understand the technology) and I feel if I'm not logged in, I'm missing interesting conversations that I will never be able to see later. It's possibly even worse than Facebook groups for hobby conversations, something I wouldn't have thought possible.
DeleteYeah, I don't enjoy Discord at all for the same reason. There may be a great conversation on a topic that interests me .... that occurred 30 days ago. And you may get indignantly referred to it if you re-ask the same question...
DeleteDiscord feels like 'all or nothing' and I choose nothing... :-)
I'm trying to interact more on this blog than the google group, as it's more visible and less niche (and the discussions in the comments tend to be more useful than my posts and almost act as a pseudo-Discord which actually lingers more than a day or so)
-eM
"90% of all gaming material is consumed as literature."
ReplyDelete--Mike Benninghof
Owner and publisher, Avalanche Press
Sorry, but the "Just the rules and a bare background" folks don't pay the bills.