If the blog seems a bit dead, it is a combination of (a) school busyness (b) moving house and (c) Google's 2FA (ok, the latter seems a bit lame but it is more the straw that causes the camel back pain or however the saying goes...)
You'd think the shifting house is a perfect time to remove the projects/terrain I no longer need/use, but au contraire - I have been mostly shoving stuff in boxes to speed up the process, as I am not in the most thoughtful of moods whilst moving. The painting has ground to a standstill (although I have prepped a few minis) as my man cave contents have transferred to my new shed. It's actually smaller than the last, but it has better storage as I have replaced older wooden bookshelves with larger, more practical metal 'shed' shelving.
Down the track the aim is to have an additional converted small shipping container which will either house my library or wargaming stuff - whichever looks/fits/works best. Over the years the man cave has become more about kids reading or playing LEGO or painting minis alongside dad rather than hosting multiple big folk, so smaller premises are OK, given I rarely play games beyond skirmish
(I tend to have a single big table split into two 4x4's for concurrent projects - usually a playtesting table and an actual game table).
...and then put a extra 'lid' of MDF on top and play on that....
...or even fill them with sand. Not bad for around ~$20 of materials and 20 minutes of work.
Most tables have textured interiors - (sand, PVA and grey spraypaint) in this case - for various genres.
Why am I mentioning terrain? Two reasons.
(A) During the shift I realize terrain storage needs far outweighs my miniatures storage. I've got thousands of LoTR troops which take up about the same storage space as a single box of terrain. Not everyone is lucky enough to have a 5-bay shed (I had 7 bays so I've gone backwards)...
(B) From my "barriers" musings of late, lack of proper terrain can really impact my motivation to play various genres (lack of good vertical terrain is hindering my Zone Raiders project - finally I have a decent set of sci fi rules but terrain is holding me up...)
I don't particularly love making terrain. I feel money spent on it could be put towards cool toys (minis)... yet decent terrain is kinda integral to the experience. It's like buying paints and brushes - I know I need them for my hobby but resent buying them...
I was thinking: What would I recommend to the "average" wargamer who is starting out? I'm assuming "some" shed/basement space and not a tiny apartment.
*One of those 4x4' MDF tables as per above, painted different colours on each side of the table and separate MDF lid (allowing 4 colours say desert, moonscape, brown dirt, ocean blue) and/or sheets of fabric to go over them. ~$20+ I put mine on picnic tables but it could go on the kitchen table.... wife permitting
*Some sets of cardboard fold out terrain (Dropship Commander, Carnivale, etc) ~$50ea for various; however be aware they don't always fold back down flat...
*Some "block" strip terrain as per above ~$10
*If time/space permits, some nicer bigger terrain specific to a system you are proven to play OR works for several genres. In my case, 15mm middle eastern works from ancients to sci fi - which is excellent versatility.
Anyway, this post is (a) to reassure regulars I will be back after a hiatus and (b) perhaps stimulate discussion on what storage/terrain works for you.
Gracias por volver, le echaba de menos.
ReplyDeleteMM
Good luck on the move! After my last move I told my wife I'm only moving out of this house boots first!
ReplyDeleteTerrain is actually my favorite party of the hobby, but I've never had a system for storing it. My current situation is it's still in the boxes it was moved in except for the pieces my kids have played with.
Likewise, best of luck on the move. After spending years as a military wargamer, with more postings and moves than I care to think about, it's nice to be in one place for the foreseeable future. Your approach to storage seems very pragmatic.
ReplyDeleteCheers from Canada,
Michael
Not sure if this was a figure of speech... are you truly using a shipping container as a hobby room, or planning to use one? Wow. I live in an apartment, but it sounds kinda cool.
ReplyDeleteAs for the lack of updates... please don't feel the pressure of all of us clicking daily to see if there's anything new here :D
> "Over the years the man cave has become more about kids reading or playing LEGO or painting minis alongside dad"
DeleteIf this happens with my daughter, I'll consider it mission accomplished. Actually playing games is, for me, secondary to spending an awesome hobbying time with someone I love.
My daughter is the arty one who wants to paint and build terrain; my son just wants to play. (LoTR is his favourite)
Delete-eM
"...are you truly using a shipping container as a hobby room, or planning to use one?"
DeleteYep. The ones with vents are quite good and I plan putting a sliding glass door in behind the big doors, then put an air con in the back. I also have 1000s of books (12 book cupboards) so it may be a library instead.
In country Australia we have heaps of room/property but housing is quite scarce at times and 'tiny homes' made of shipping containers are becoming trendy, as most new houses are 4+ bedroom, 200sqm+ and unaffordable for folk starting out. So converted shipping containers for various purposes are quite popular.
I.e. I have a 9 acre block touching suburban streets, but my small 3 bedroom house is faaar more expensive than the land.
-eM
Thanks for sharing your moving and terrain musings! It's always interesting to hear how fellow gamers manage their space and balance terrain needs. Your DIY tables and affordable terrain solutions are inspiring for those of us looking to optimize our setups.
ReplyDeleteGlad to see you back! Too many interesting blogs seem to 'disappear' overnight, I'm happy you haven't lost interest in writing these posts <3. I really like how you made the table boards with additional frames on the side so they can be stacked on top of one another and turn into 'boxes', keeping extra stuff stored within. It could be also used to 'save' a game in progress if you don't have time to finish (if the terrain is not too tall at least - but for board games it would work perfectly). I especially like the idea of putting actual sand into a frame - that looks super cool and gives a nice natural look to the play area with all the little irregularities in the landscape, hills etc. I have many times considered making something similar, but with ground/earth for flowers and then actually planting some smaller scale looking plants like succulents etc to represent trees lol. Never got around to doing it, but it's something I'd really like to try. I know the Mrs would be happy to see me playing around with actual greenery rather than plastic for sure :). For my current setup I use the 'infamous' ikea kallax shelves - two pieces of 2x8 back to back, as the 'legs' so I can store terrain and minis in the boxes inside the shelves, and then I have 2'x4' MDF boards that I can stack on top depending how much surface is needed again depending which game is being played (it's usually just 2 boards for a 4x4, but more can be added if a bigger game is planned). An then a bunch of neoprene mats according to theme are put on top. I reeeeally like the mats, they take very little space when rolled up and can make a big change of scenery already on their own.
ReplyDelete-MK
I've considered using moss/grass etc for an organic table; but moisture and maintenance would be a killer I think. Sand can simply be poured into a bucket and is innocuously dry.
DeleteI have a range of camping mats that I've sliced up for 'levels' and hills but they get less use than the examples in the post.
I do plan on making my own canvas+paint+texture "roll out" gaming mat, but the ingredients are in my as-yet-to-be-moved-into new shed!
There will probably be a burst of gaming activity in a month when the move is fully complete... I tend to read or play vidoegames with my kids when too tired to be inventive...
-eM
Glad to see that you're back! I'm not sure what a "5-bay shed" nor a "7-bay" - can you share a picture for those of us who don't know? Are you currently using a shipping container? What's the floorplan / layout? I'm always curious how people organize their spaces.
ReplyDeletePersonally, if I were starting over with a gaming table in a gaming room, I'd build a dedicated 4'x6' 'bar height' table using 1' deep storage cabinets in the base, 3" tall edge around the playing surface, and removable covers. I'm pretty impressed with the modern dedicated gaming tables, but I think I could build a pretty decent one.
4'x8' is a luxury size, but I haven't played anything that big in several years, and back when I did, it was more commonly split as side-by-side 4x4 battles or 3-man teams. It's more for hosting club/group events.
For a single player, 4'x'6' is good because you have space on the wings for reserves, rulebooks, drinks, etc. around a 4'x4' playing area.
I'm super big on enclosed wall cabinets. I have most of my stuff in a couple 4' wide x 6' high storage cabinets. The doors keep the dust out and hide the clutter.
Open shelving is fine if everything is in storage boxes. I like the translucent ones so you can kinda see what's inside.
But if I were just getting started, I'd build a 3'x5' table topper. 5" lip all around with a neoprene mat.
Thanks,
- GG
A 5 bay shed means you could park 5 cars in it. Well, 4 cars (2x2) plus another car would fit lengthwise at the back.
Delete[ car 1 ] [ car 3] [half car]
[car 2 ] [ car 4] [half car]
I use open metal shelving (it's cheap and sturdy) and many many clear square flat containers (the sort you use for fishing tackle) that conveniently fit an mini standing up (unless it has a spear).
We have 3 cars (my wife wants me to get rid of one) so I have 2 car spaces of gaming.
-eM
Ah, of course! Thanks for explaining. 2 cars worth of space is roughly 20'x20', so about the same as a typical 2-car garage. You have more dedicated gaming / play space than everybody without a converted basement! Super nice!
Delete- GG
WRT cars, have you considered consolidating 2 of them into a BYD Atto EV & home solar? Seems like it's getting great reviews online, although my country won't get them for at least 2 years, if ever.
Delete"My" cars are old school: a n54 BMW 135i and a 1JZ Soarer.... you can safely assume electric cars are not high on my priorities. :-P
Delete-eM
Oh, that 135i is really nice! I had a N52 E60, which drove surprisingly well for a 4-door, probably the last great mechanical sedan by BMW. Unfortunately, some moron made an illegal turn and the car was totaled. The replacement 5s I got were heavy, bloated, and sluggish. Now it feels like BMW has lost their way.
DeleteThat Soarer is also pretty nice, my neighbor had one. I had a Subaru SVX of similar vintage, amazing all-weather cruiser. Ultimately, the car just got too old after 200,000 miles (325,000 km).
I see something like the Atto for errands about town. Quiet, safe, reliable, easy to drive, easy to park, cheap to operate, minimal maintenance required. Electric SUVs are basically perfect for that. We're strongly considering an EV + solar for our next car.
- GG
In Australia, hybrids are very pricey.
DeleteWe have one charging station in my town. Towns here are usually several hours drive apart - so I don't see electric cars catching on as fast here as other countries.
Common cars in my town are Toyota Hilux/Landcruisers (over represented), Commodores (Chevrolet SS?) and SUVs like RAV4s.
-eM
Yeah, hybrids can be a expensive upfront. I had a 530e with a mere 20 km electric range. It was enough to do a local errand, but not enough for round trip commutes. It still brought my overall fuel cost down. I only charged at home, so the lack of in-town public chargers didn't matter, because it just switched the engine on after the battery was drained.
DeleteThe new EVs are much better, and the Chinese ones don't carry an unnecessary price premium.
It's kinda poor policy how the US and Australia both have such shoddy public support for EVs. But if I charge at home, it's not a big deal.
Have a good one!
- GG
Hi Monkeigh.
ReplyDeleteWondering if you can point me in the direction of skirmish style games where melee combat involves an element of skill?
I love tabletop, but I'm yet to find a game where the melee combat doesn't cause my eyes to glaze over. Would love some recommended reading!
Have you tried Dungeons and Dragons? Seriously. If you strip away the story and adventure nonsense, there's a very well detailed skirmish combat engine with a huge number of options.
Delete- GG
"Wondering if you can point me in the direction of skirmish style games where melee combat involves an element of skill?"
ReplyDeleteUsually they involves a degree of complication that slows the game down enough to make your eyes glaze over as well... As per GG's suggestion, you may head into RPG territory ....or 3-4 per team arena games... How slow are you willing to go? I like Savage Worlds for a combat-capable RPG... but I'm not a huge RPG fan.
There are games that use dice pools (Bushido) (En garde/Ronin); SAGA uses battle boards, there are gladiator games like Arena Rex that have a damage tree where you can choose your damage effects. Some use cards as a melee guessing game (basically scissors paper rock with extra steps). Rumbleslam manages stamina and action points etc.
My preferred "sweet spot" of decisions vs game speed is about ME:SBG; I like "push back" mechanics (lock or move away) and arranging forces (shieldwalls work); and a range of simple stances (feint, parry, etc) that offer you simple decisions (parry = roll double dice = more chance to win the combat - but cannot wound) - with fast resolution.
*Combat usually not fatal; you don't just chug dice til someone dies
*Push back vs lock/choose to follow up
*Positioning matters
*Manage modifiers via positioning etc
*Stances (attack, defend, etc)
*Resource management (spend might or fate to change results or do special moves)
It's decisions, not mechanics, that make a game fun (imo). My interest is "does melee give me at least SOME options/choices." Unfortunately there is usually a trade off in complexity.
What games that you tried did you enjoy most? What did you hate?
-eM
Agreed on your general overview of what would make melee interesting (choices). Dicefests till one combatant falls over are boring.
DeleteOne game that does at least *some* of what you describe is Five Leagues from the Borderlands. You can choose stance, lock vs push, etc. I had trouble thinking why one would choose "parry" as an attacker (greater defense but no chance to wound) until it was explained to me this allows weaker models to tie up stronger enemies while the other heroes complete objectives or rush to join the fight.
Thank you for the very considered response. The process of 'chug dice til someone dies' is exactly why I think so many systems fail to resonate with me (my ADHD doesn't help). Decisions over mechanics is exactly what I crave, but it is as you say and complexity is often the price of admission. I'd like there to be a degree of elegance still.
DeleteI actually really enjoy the combat in 5e. I suppose special abilities are a good way to introduce a good bit of tact. Giving players a fun bag of tricks, so to speak.
My aim is to make a melee combat system where players have a good bit of agency. I like the combat in Ronin/En Garde and Five Leagues especially but they're still not quiiiite there for me. I've been giving Arena Rex a once over today and I really like the damage trees. I think there could be something to that...
You are of course right that RPGs might make for a better source of inspiration. I have completely overlooked ME:SBG however. Very good shout! I've just ordered the rules for that along with Freebooters and Bushido.
Thanks Monkeigh!
Andy too, thanks very much! I really like Five Leagues.
DeleteFor a usual GW sceptic, I really like ME:SBG.
DeleteIt could be improved, for sure, but it just hits a sweet spot (for me) between decisions and complexity. It can also be used for pirates, medieval, vikings etc, and is unique in my experience in how it can handle 30-40 minis reasonably fast while moving each individually.
The use of might to allow you to activate differently/out of turn is also interesting and adds a simple 'layer' of choice. The 2005 edition was the most elegant/complete but the newer rules add in more stances and cinematic extra stuff which you'll probably like.
Speaking of GW, I have not properly played GW's Warcry, but from my experimenting it seems a sensible set of rules (yes, even with the hitpoints). It's free if you want to look. ....I just have 0 desire to own the minis.
-eM
I always heard good things about Warcry, it seems to be one of the "good" sets by GW. I also heard (YouTube speculation, so take with more than a pinch of salt) that GW is likely killing Underworlds (another of their standalone games, though more boardgame like) and consolidating Warcry as remake of Mordheim, so I wonder how that is going to affect the rules...
DeleteI like Killteam's models, but find the rules as high complexity/medium choices; whereas Warcry seemed better: lower complexity/medium choices. Less effort, for a similar level of play. But the models suck...
DeleteI'd play Warcry with Mordhiem minis/fluff. I have fond memories of Mordhiem but I briefly tested it and Necromunda again last year... and it has not aged well. So clunky. To a lesser extent, Bloodbowl is another that wasn't as good as I remembered. You need a good spoonful of nostalgia to wash it down...
In contrast, Battlefleet Gothic and MESBG (which is pretty much the same game 20yrs on) would be good games if released in 2024....
-eM
BFG, as originally released, is a truly excellent game. I'm not a fan of the post-GW versions that tweak the balance, nor am I much of a fan of the expanded forces like Space Marines and Necrons. Imps, Chaos, Orks & Eldar are plenty enough.
DeleteI have a soft spot for Mordheim out of the box, just the original rulebook without all of the Town Cryer stuff added. While I love the classic Necromunda minis, I never really got into playing. OTOH, I just can't get into the Warcry minis, even if the rules are great.
- GG
I played the 1st edition of Warcry as I really liked the idea of the setting ( chaos warbands battling to attract the favor of the chaos gods in nearly arena-style fights) The game is a breath of fresh air from the ususal GW design, as it moves away from the to hit, to wound and to save rolls. The game introduced also treats all weapons, melee and ranged the same way, changing only the range at which you can attack. ( a spear logically allows you to attack from a larger distance than a dagger). Where Warcry has a big shortcoming is the introduction of critical hits, attack rolls of 6 would hit critically, resulting in average at 3 to 6 times larger damage. It's very swingy and it becomes fast a game of who manages to roll the most 6s.
DeleteEeek that's a lot for a crit - (I thought I had 3pt crits max when I tried it); even having HP can't "smooth" a 6pt crit. It'd be just who rolls the most 6s. (I'm not a fan of the trend to say make only a '6' count and all the other results being meaningless; which is in quite a few games...)
DeleteWarcry seems purposefully designed from the 'ground up' rather than being a Frankenstein of 1990s mechanics like many other GW games.
Initiative/wild dice, dividing into 3 groups, the 'equal-greater-lower' stat comparison mechanic, simple reactions....
-eM
Enjoy the new Cave mate - there's nothing better than having a great space available for Hobby (storage, playing, painting)
ReplyDeleteI think I did...?
ReplyDelete....found it (2012 says hi)
https://deltavector.blogspot.com/2012/05/cheap-wargame-terrain-for-all-scales.html
It's just MDF sheet with some pine glued to it. Then another MDF sheet loosely laid on top as a lid if needed. They were super easy to make and have lasted for 12 years...
-eM
Congratulations on the new place (Question mark maybe)!
ReplyDeleteD&D is a terrible combat/choice system because the results are too swingy to really have "skill". You might as well play Frostgrave. In D&D even if you are good at something you might have a +20 to +30% chance compared to someone with no skills at all. Often times your choices just come down to "hit it with a stick" and then wait for it to hit you back and pray it rolls bad. No more choice than your standard TT skirmish game really.
If you go the RPG route, you probably want something with a dice pool. Maybe Shadowrun 3rd edition?
Of course, your mileage may vary and personal preference and all that.
Eric Farrington
House is due to be moved into soon; shed has been done for ages but all my gear is there; it's also hard to justify painting when there is real work to be done :-(
DeleteI'd like to explore RPGs and see if they have any good ideas but the pdfs are insanely overpriced - a 30yr old pdf might be $40 whereas a GW glossy physical hardcover is only $65-70.
My few RPG forays were FUDGE (simple) for actual roleplaying - so the rules didn't interfere with the flow - and some wargame crossovers like Inquisitor, and Savage Worlds (the latter I view as a useful toolbox as it shares mechanics with many 'dice type = stat" rules)
-eM