Whilst we moved in months ago, a barrage of furniture (36 IKEA flat packs!) has dulled my enthusiasm for assembling minis. That said, I did make some progress with some low-hanging fruit; I grabbed some bright green glowy secondhand warriors of the deads off eBay.
I just did a bit of a darker wash and a white drybrush to make them a bit more subdued and less 'neon.'
They were dead easy to paint and as you can see line up OK with the oversized, beefy Victrix vikings aka Dunlendings:....
Given GW doesn't even MAKE Black Numenoreans any more (and they're a pretty core unit!) 3D prints are a no brainer. The beauty of 3D printing is it's also so cheap I can experiment - at a fraction of the price of GW even when you could buy the official sculpts. I had 6 mounted aka Morgul Knights and 6 foot Numenoreans resin printed professionally for the price of a single box of 4. Anyway, another +12 to bring my LoTR paint count to 104.
Hunt: Showdown. If its atmosphere was any thicker you could cut it with a knife.
Atmosphere in Games
I've been thinking about this a bit of late. Firstly, I've been a lot of Mechwarrior Online (PC) with my 9 year old. I'd recommend it as good 'old gamer dad' game, as it's pretty slow paced, and customizing (aka min-maxing) your mech is fun for tinkerers. It's a pretty basic kill-em-all arena shooter, but there's a surprising amount of nerds/lore in the chat, and it has inspired a lot of interest in mechs in our house! However - the Battletech rules are obtuse, antiquated and gluggy and the Alpha Strike rules are unfit for purpose. There are free generic mech wargames around - but we kinda want the 'feel' of Battletech - heat sinks, jumpjets, and the 'official' weaponry - PPCs, gauss, lasers, SRMs. We want to 'feel' Battletech mechs, not use LEGO gundam rules.
It's atmosphere. Lore. World building. It's why I am thinking about printing off Mordhiem rules again, even though it's gameplay is kinda dated. It's the gothic ruins and ratmen, the strong sense of identity and mood. (The PC game Vermintide does this pretty well too, but a tad too violent for my kid!). Mordhiem's strong sense of identity inspires scratch building, customisation and narrative - decades after it was discontinued.
Or why am I considering resurrecting Battlefleet Gothic with 3D prints despite having perfectly serviceable Dropfleet rules and minis? Kilometres-long flying cathederals jumping through demon-haunted hyperspace just makes the latter game seem sterile and generic with it's paint-by-the-numbers factions and world-building.
I am even trying/learning the PC game Hunt:Showdown - in genre I broadly dislike - an extraction based PvP shooter: kinda PubG with extra steps and permadeath/loot loss, so hackers can ruin your day even more - but it drips with atmosphere and has me digging out Wild Weird West miniatures. It's lore and atmosphere makes me want to play and be part of the universe, even if I am not that keen on the 'rules' so to speak.
Generic Mechanics, No Lore....
About ~10-15 years back the indie wargame scene had heaps on "generic/universal wargame rules" - basically a set of mechanics that claimed to allow you to "use any miniatures" to fight anything from Roman Legionaires to Star Wars. Basically, they hung their hat on having cleaner/better mechanics than 40K (admittedly not a difficult bar) and the ability to use 'any miniatures in your collection.'
I can't think of any that stayed around. There was nothing wrong with them - there was just no reason to play them. By catering to everything, and having no set background, lore or atmosphere - they appealed to no one.
The only game system that did well from this era I reckon was the Song of Blades series. Probably because it had spin-offs that specifically catered to different eras - Napoleonics, fantasy, Arthurian, furry animals a la Redwall, post-apoc, swashbuckling - while the underlying mechanics were similar, each rulebook was actually quite specific and actually did have a distinct atmosphere. The rules themselves were OK but not amazing - interesting activation, swingy combat, use of 101 special rules to actually differentiate models in attempt to 'simplify.' I think I spent more time creating warbands than playing the rules. Rather than being a staple of a gaming session, it enabled my creativity. Which leads me to what I see a fair bit of now...
....Strong Lore, Minimal Mechanics
I think Frostgrave is a good example of this. The rules themselves are pretty meh: packaged as a standalone generic set (like in the earlier era) no one would give them a second glance. However they are packaged with lots of lore and background, successfully bottling some of the Mordhiem lightening (warbands searching for magical artifacts in a ruined city *cough*). The lore and atmosphere carries the rules - they give you a reason to play. Most of the old generic rulesets are probably better rules than Frostgrave - mechanics-wise - but is anyone playing them?
Having a strong background; yet freedom to customise - this attracts the tinkerers, scratchbuilders - those who just want a framework to create. Who don't mind the odd house rule, swingy mechanics or lack of clarity. And there's a fair overlap between those folk and people who buy indie wargames. Those serious about competition and regular games will probably opt for something more popular and commercial.
I wonder if there is a risk in being too specific. I thought Zone Raiders did a great job of making a sci fi skirmish game for those wanting lighter fare than Infinity. It had a strong lore and background - mega cities like from Blame! - but the weapons and gear tended to only come from that setting. A list of generic standard sci-fi weapons would make the rules more adaptable. Because the weapons and gear kinda specifically focussed the game on a niche setting, it may have minimised it's audience? I know it's actually dissuaded me from playing until I get more terrain to match the mega city vibe and paint suitable models.
I've always enjoyed LoTR:SBG. It has very strong lore and background, and not only (a) decent rules simple but some tactics and (b) rules that match the lore - or at least the heroic action in the movies. Terrain is pretty easy - generic medieval. You can easily adapt non-official minis.
I wonder if there is another category - overly complex/detailed rules, strong lore - which would include many RPGs along with games like Infinity (which always felt like it was made by a RPGer).
Anyhow, I guess my question I am exploring/googling for the moment is:
What are wargame rules with strong settings, excellent 'atmosphere'? (Obviously not including the obvious ones like 40K, Battletech, etc)
Maybe there are RPG backgrounds (an area obviously strong on lore) that could be adapted to a wargame?
Hola, un placer leerle de nuevo.
ReplyDeleteSoy el típico friki que desde niño hace sus propios juegos y aunque no he hecho nada profesionalmente, leo y me documento mucho sobre el tema.
A continuación mi opinión, aunque es totalmente subjetiva y oigo con respeto cualquier otra opinión.
Creo que la sensación y el ambiente son la base de cualquier juego de guerra. Las miniaturas sin trasfondo son sólo muñequitos de plástico y aunque el sistema sea bueno, sin el trasfondo este sistema se cae.
Muchos juegos genéricos de rol, juegos de guerra, etc sin trasfondo no han llegado a cuajar. Es como en un vehículo, la mecánica de un juego es el motor, pero eso no es lo único importante del vehículo.
Cuando alguien te pregunta sobre un juego, no dices "piscinas de dados y movimiento en pulgadas" si no que hablas de su ambientación.
La ambientación te permite ver con claridad el porqué de una regla, si tengo un guerrero berserk borracho con movimiento aleatorio, me puede hacer gracia si sé que es un berserk borracho. Si no, sólo tengo un guerrero con movimiento aleatorio y no voy a vivir la sensación de igual forma y quizás me aburra.
Por otro lado, es difícil que cuaje la ambientación. Si esa ambientación es demasiado novedosa o radicalmente diferente, puede que cueste sumergirse en ese trasfondo y no todo el mundo quiere leerse una novela para poder sumergirse en ese trasfondo, haciendo que haya un estancamiento porque todo es parecido a algo que ya se hizo previamente.
Por ejemplo, en Dark Sun los enanos no tienen pelo (ni barba), viven en casas sin techo, adoran el sol, son extremadamente morenos, tienen crestas cartilaginosas de color naranja y aborrecen la tecnología; para un jugador promedio, no son/ parecen enanos. Hay jugadores que tampoco asimilan enanos con arcos u orcos con la piel de un color que no sea verde.
Siento el bloque de texto, aún me quedé con ganas de más pero no quiero agobiar a nadie.
Mucha suerte con tus muebles, sé lo que se siente. Un saludo desde España.
MM
Junto con Planescape, Dark Sun me parece una de las ambientaciones más interesantes que tiene D&D. A mí me aburren los orcos, elfos y enanos tradicionales :)
Deletesomewhat random, but in terms of PC games too since you'd previously played war thunder enlisted is a neat game as well. also for a game that's really interesting in terms of mechanics and lore too somewhat I would check out Foxhole. It reminds me of EVE online somewhat in terms of the economy and stuff - hard to entirely explain the concept though.
ReplyDeleteIMO, if one plays PC games, one should at least try Genshin Impact (free), and then, either Honkoi Star Rail or Zenless Zone Zero. The games are popular because they are legitimately good and accessible to the casual gamer who doesn't spend more than their pocket charge. I play Genshin, and it's beautiful and relaxing.
Delete- GG
Nobody buys games for the rules or mechanics. It's aesthetics and storytelling. Mechanics are a knockout though, a reason NOT to play again, a reason to sell and be done.
ReplyDeleteIf you haven't played Mordheim and/or BFG, I highly encourage you do so. Have your kids play, too. It's good stuff.
The overcomplicated game with strong lore is obviously 40k above all others, to the point that many normies know what it is. Sorta. Kinda.
- GG
Hola. Sí jugué Mordheim y BFG, estamos hablando de cosas distintas.
DeleteLa mecánica importa, es uno de los pilares de un juego, pero no el único.
MM
"If you haven't played Mordheim and/or BFG, I highly encourage you do so. Have your kids play, too. It's good stuff."
DeleteBFG, along with Blood Bowl, is the most--played game of my childhood. Re-tried Blood Bowl but its slower than I remembered. (Or I had more free time as a teen!)
Mordhiem I also played a bit, and min-maxed warbands (undead, beastman) in it may have inspired my interest in campaign balancing.....
-eM
I only played Blood Bowl in videogame format, and to me it seems the most boring, random game. I soon lost interest. I suppose on the tabletop, with the "collect teams of tiny dudes" factor, it has its charm.
DeleteBFG is genuinely good though, both the gameplay and its aesthetics.
It is boring, and there are much better indie fantasy sports games out there in the same line, but unfortunately, people don't look beyond the big brand :-(
DeleteFWIW, I never got into Blood Bowl, even though the shop ran a league. It just didn't speak to me.
DeleteOTOH, I really enjoyed BFG so much. It's such a good game, so smooth and straightforward, with great lore all throughout. This was where Jervis and the design team figured out that attaching a little lore to every item adds the necessary 'stickyness' that GW customers crave.
Mordheim is really best played among human warbands, a small minority of non-humans for spice, and NO expansion materials. The plethora of add-ons bloat the game and break the balance, so should be BANNED by default.
BTW, the BFG expansion forces like Tau and Necrons are similarly problematic.
It's generally best to just play BFG and Mordheim OOTB, without expansions or modifications to see how the game was originally designed and balanced.
- GG
BB is kinda masochistic - an exercise in disaster management I always felt - basically I always played to minimise the way the dice could screw me over. League play is fun and the 'atmosphere' is good though - e.g. Dreadball is a much smoother, better game but its kinda bland and contrived vs 'gridiron with orks'
DeleteGames are slow though, and clunky.
I have some 3D printed BFG incoming and it was probably my most played GW game as a kid using proxy ships.
-eM
Ok, I was still fixed on the 36 flat packs, because I installed a lot of them, so I went around my house and counted. It turns out that I, too, have at least 36 flat packs at home, in addition to regular furniture.
ReplyDelete- GG
I unfortunately did not photo the 3 dozen (I probably only have a dozen unfinished now and I've assembled the bigger kits) but I think it was about a forklift pallet only wider.
DeleteI know I started to sign the delivery chit but the truck driver said "hang on, it's only half" and pointed to the other 1/4 of the truck. RIP weekends.... :-P
-eM
Haha, I know the exact feeling. Having the closet organizers and garage storage made such a big difference. Also for the small money, the over-toilet wall cabinet is totally worth it.
Delete- GG
Hm, I get what you're saying, but I'm going to see that Frostgrave has rules about as complex as Song of Blades and Heroes, and it has the thinnest of "lore". I don't think lore defines Frostgrave, there are (almost) no named characters, if you read the rulesets almost no text "fluff" except in the vaguest terms, and even Feldstat itself is replaceable, as evidenced by the many people playing "Sandgrave" or whatnot. Frostgrave is a rules-lite, swingy, re-themable ruleset. I think people who expected a Mordheim replacement were mislead, and are actually those most disappointed with the game. (By the way, the same goes with Rangers of Shadow Deep, with many regularly asking for detailed maps or background, only to be told by the author the game intentionally doesn't provide any, or any explanation of what the "Shadow Deep" actually is).
ReplyDeleteI do agree lore seems to be important, and games which are pure mechanics are choosing the hardest route. Lore is so important, in fact, that it's what seems to be driving anything Warhammer-related ;)
"I'm going to see" --> "I'm going to SAY".
DeleteSigh, I hate Blogger.
"Hm, I get what you're saying, but I'm going to see that Frostgrave has rules about as complex as Song of Blades and Heroes, and it has the thinnest of "lore"
DeleteBear in mind I don't mean novels of background text - I think that's why I'm using the word 'atmosphere' instead, for example these...
https://freeleaguepublishing.com/shop/mork-borg/artpunk-rpg/
... have heaps of atmosphere and theme just reading the shop page!
https://www.goonhammer.com/necropolis28-a-narrative-diorama-skirmish-game/
^Probably only 3 pages of descriptive text in the whole 30 page rules, but plenty of 'atmosphere'....
-eM
^My fault - I started using the word atmosphere, linking to videogames and their imagery etc - 'gamefeel' - then used the word lore repeatedly which kinda sounds like if there's lots of background text, like "Star Wars lore".
DeleteIt made sense in my head I promise.
-eM
I think the rise of "lifestyle" brands with tons of lore and dedicated artwork and setting specific miniatures over the past couple of decades has changed miniature wargaming by bringing in many people who care more about those things than the actual games themselves and want to participate in a fictional universe that is essentially premade and presented to them as a complete package. To me these lore heavy franchises tend to feel incredibly claustrophobic, but to each his own I suppose.
ReplyDeleteAlso, as with RPG books & supplements, a lot of this stuff is bought as reading material rather than games to actually bring to the table, and a line continually churning out supplements has in that respect more to offer than a complete one-off book, regardless how good that one-off book is.
This was always the case, which is why RPGs have held their player bases through thick and thin. GW showed that lore-heavy miniatures wargames sell and are sticky. Kingdom Death took that to boardgames and made huge money. Magic the Gathering has a surprising amount of lore, given how little formal storytelling occurs inside the game itself.
Delete- GG
Dunno...may be an outlier position here, but: Historical Miniature Gaming has lore (or whatever you'd like to call it) in abundance.
ReplyDeleteI would have proposed the same. I am currently doing a deep dive into WW2 wargaming. This conflict alone has so many interesting battles that can be gamed. My grandfathers fought in Russia and North Africa, so these are theaters of operation which hold a special interest for me, but I am also looking into Normandy, Market Garden, Westwall and Ardennes. As a bonus, you can visit the historical sites for further immersion.
DeleteFor me as a player, the trick is a thin amount of background; but only enough for me to be able to set my games in it. I prefer to make my own corner of the world. I want to have my own heroes, my own forces, and my own lore within that larger context.
ReplyDeleteFor many editions that was the strength of Warhammer 40K. You could have all sorts of things happen in your Sector, Planet, city, etc. and it didn't matter for the larger 40K universe. Not as much now.
As a designer, I prefer minimal background because.... well... it is just more to write and more reason for a potential reader to reject it. Anything more than a page of background with scattered flavor text is too much trouble for what it is often worth.
Oh yea, Eric Farrington BTW
DeleteAbsolutely agree - I loved older Warhammer Fantasy for that reason, but GW has shifted how they handle their IP and "taken" that freedom away.
DeleteYes, there was a time when player groups could actually drive official game lore, as opposed to fake campaigns that go through the motions without the result.
Delete- GG
Hola
ReplyDeleteCreo que es bueno tener un trasfondo base sobre el que puedas abordar el juego tal cual o puedas crear sobre él.
Si las unidades de tu juego son muy genéricas, no es necesario mucho trasfondo, pero creo que si haces algo un poco especial, sí los necesitas.
En Warhammer Fantasy tenías cosas como los Goblins Nocturnos Fanáticos, que sin el trasfondo son solo Goblins con cadenas.
Creo que una introducción es necesaria, por ejemplo "1 lucha contra 2 por el control de una mina en las montañas X" es suficiente. No necesito saber la historia de cómo se creó el mundo ni saber las coordenadas de esas montañas.
Un saludo desde España.
M M
I like to call these Atmosphere heavy and flavor heavy games as "Vibe Games".
ReplyDeleteI look at all the excitement around The Doomed or Turnip 28. It felt like it was driven by vibes more than anything else. I am not sure how much these games can survive just on Vibes, but for One-off releases like the Doomed, a big, initial splash is the best outcome you can have!