If everyone wants "better 40K rules" then at least as popular among indie gamers is a desire for "modernized Mordheim." It remains the nostalgia-tinted gold standard for campaign games, with 'vibes' that have stood the test of time. The grimdark Old World setting has resisted GW's attempts to nuke it, and (probably because of GW's lack of meddling) the game remains surprisingly popular for a "dead" game.
I've got my old homebrew fantasy rules but as I enjoy experimenting with different mechanics I dragged Mordheim out to refresh my (now very vague) gameplay recollections.
Now, we know it is great for thematic 'vibes' and it has a proper deep campaign system (something surprisingly few imitators bother with, despite it being the obvious main hook - not coincidentally, the most successful recent 'not-Mordheim' games - Frostgrave, 7 Leagues, Rangers of Shadowdeep etc have correctly focussed on the campaign aspect.
But is the game itself fun to play on the table? Highly subjective. But what about the mechanics? We can look at those. How well has Mordheim aged in... ....25 years? (I still feel like the 80s were 20 years ago ffs...)
I'm looking at the gameplay mechanics, not the strong campaign/themes. Exploration charts, skills, xp, , trading, income etc - probably the core of what makes Mordheim special - is actually outside the scope of this post.
(-) Activation
Although the rulebook says it is "like chess" it isn't. It's oldschool IGOUGO. You do all the things with all your models, then I do the same. It's the most stilted, non-flowing, non-interactive way to activate.
Frostgrave (while far from being a great tactical game) breaks it up; you move your wizard + nearby minions, then you do the same; I move my apprentice + nearby minions, then you do the same, then I move my unattached minions and you do the same. It's broken into 6 phases, not 2. There's more opportunities to respond to your opponent. Or MESBG which is even better: I move, you move, I shoot, you shoot, we both melee. Heroes, like wizards, can interrupt this sequence and thus create more phases... ...from 5 to say 9 if you had two heroes each.
More phases means more choices = more tactics. This is really where Mordheim shows its mass-battle (WFB) rank-and-flank roots. Thumbs down.
Couldn't we just use alternate activation of individual models like the new Necromunda? Maybe. But I think the charge/counter-charge mechanics may be impacted...
(+) Counters, Status, Cinematics, Special Rules
Put down the pitchforks - this one is a positive. Unlike Frostgrave with its D&D hitpoints, or games like Infinity with 20 status tokens - Mordheim is quite efficient with recording things.
You tip a model facedown (stunned); faceup (knocked down); or remove (dead); the tokens are pretty much just wounds (not all models) and hide. Some big models have multiple wounds but it isn't Frostgrave where everyone has 10+ meaningless hitpoints to record. (20 men x 10HP = 200 boxes). Mordheim is surprisingly clean and uncluttered.
Despite this, it is quite cinematic. The different "states" or "status" gives a cinematic effect beyond just "OK" and "dead/removed." There are even rules from "death from above" attacks - jumping down onto people!
Likewise, it uses familiar stats (move, shoot, fight, initiative, etc) to describe the fantasy combatants and doesn't have 101 special rules like Song of Blades.
Weapon, (~30) spell and (~20) equipment lists are distinctive but restrained. A sword might get a simple special rule "parry" to force a re-roll. A axe might get an armour bonus. Mordheim also uses very few modifiers (easy to remember) which would be great .....if combat didn't take 5-6 steps...
For such a cinematic, character-based warband game, it is surprisingly uncluttered and sensible in counters and special rules.
(-) Mechanics. Roll a d6... again.... and again.... and again...
These are super clunky. In say Frostgrave (which I never thought I'd use as a good role model...)
1. Both sides roll a d20 + their stat. The highest hits.
2. The loser deducts their Armour from the winner's score and that is the damage (HP) inflicted.
One d20 roll. Two things to do. I mean I hate HP and I like minimal math, but the process is very simple.
.....Now let's take a Mordheim fight. It's like trying to do something on a Mac. Click the same button 10 times to do anything...
1. Roll a d6 to hit (on a table)
2. Roll a d6 to wound (on a different table)
3. Any crits from Step 2? These are quite common and have various effects. Roll another d6!
4. Roll a d6 armour save (this may completely cancel steps 1-3 meaning you wasted your time)
5. Downed? Roll another d6 to see if you are stunned, knocked down or dead.
That's 4-5 rolls, with some rolls cancelling the other rolls (making them meaningless) with the possibility of extra rolls being triggered by special rules.
I've said elsewhere why tables are bad, unless they have a simple underlying formula which means you don't need them. I.e. double or more 2+, more 3+, even 4+, less 5+, half or less 6+ on a d6 (Warcry?) is fine - you don't even need a table to start with. Mordheim does not do this. Extra annoying to use a different table straight after, instead of having a universal one.
While not at Two Fat Lardies levels, there is a real hodge-podge of mechanics. Sometimes a high roll is best, sometimes low. Sometimes 2d6, usually one. Even your shooting score (BS) is needs to be checked against the rules to see what roll you actually need....
I secretly enjoy armour saves (though inefficient/bad, they give the impression of agency and involve the defensive player) but not when they undo up to three rolls (with their own tables, modifiers, rules etc): that's really inefficient and annoying.
More subjectively - I find the equal chance of being stunned, downed or killed outright a bit arbitrary, and I never got why anyone should automatically get to "strike first". I mean, I get longer weapons like spears should have an advantage but... ...to always go first?
I do like some rules like "shoot the closest unless you are up in a sniper perch" which are sensible. The ability to Hide also adds tactical choice.
The combat resolution in Mordheim is super clunky and dated: alongside the IGOUGO activation it is why I don't play it with my kids. A skirmish game shouldn't need to take 2hrs due to clunky mechanics.... ...Weirdly, I really feel like Zone Raiders (sci fi anime/Infinity) is the actual modern gameplay successor to Mordheim, mechanics-wise.
(+) Morale
The ability to break an enemy with only 25% losses (say 3 of your 12 warband) it actually very good in wargames where a 50% bloodbath is the norm. Fights should rarely involve the complete decimation of either or both sides, especially characterful and lovingly customized warbands where death is often permanent. Rules like hatred, frenzy, stupid, fear are all simple enough and characterful, and have an impact on how you play the mini.
The leaders giving a morale bonus and the all alone rule (may break if fighting solo with no allies in range) is also cool and surprisingly realistic for a fantasy game. I really like it when you don't have to fight as a team, and there's no magic 2" coherency leashes - but there is an advantage if you do. (MESBG is really good at this too - I tend to find myself making a shieldwall/battle line near a leader even though I can move minis freely anywhere...)
These Heroclix gargoyles have been rebased and touched up....
TL:DR
Mordheim activation is dated. Combat resolution is also super clunky. However it is quite cinematic, surprisingly restrained with special rules, and has better morale/leadership rules and far less table clutter than many more modern offerings. I don't hate it, but am certainly not planning on playing with my kids.
Verdict: Although the campaign and theme is still top of the line - if you plan on actually playing more than one game in an evening or are getting into skirmish campaigns for the first time - you should probably grab something more modern.
It's important to see Mordheim as a revolutionary evolution of Necromunda 1E, from when Necroumunda was still a 40k 2E polyhedral dice game. By comparison, Mordheim is infinitely cleaner, smoother, more elegant, with a focus on tactical gameplay over special characters and special rules. The improved campaign and advancement system were the icing on the cake.
ReplyDeleteMordheim combat mechanics were consistent with WFB 5E/6E norms, because Mordheim was pitched to WFB players with the same scale models on the same 20mm square bases. There is an implicit expectation of basic familiarity with GW Warhammer gameplay, and this hits all of those buttons: Igo-Ugo, WFB-like to-hit, to-wound, parry, save, morale combat resolution. If you came from WFB 5E or jumped into WFB 6E, the learning curve is almost nil, it's so much simpler and faster, as there's no ranks or formations to manage.
Yes, things have nominally advanced somewhat since then, but it's unfair to look at Mordheim without first looking at WFB 5E/6E and Necromunda 1E. Especially when a "modern" skirmish game like Infinity has more pages of special rules than Mordheim has rules. Recognizing Frostgrave as a successor to Mordheim, it would be unfortunate if it were somehow worse. Or compare with Guildball, newer yet again, but is it better? My sense is that the GW fantasy skirmishes are really good having had even more time to evolve.
- GG
To call Mordheim... with 5-6 rolls to resolve combat... infinitely more elegant than.... anything.... is very generous :-)
DeleteWith WFB being on hiatus (last edition before AoS was 2010 - that's 15 years ago!) through most of Mordheim's (un)lifetime ease of "jumping across" is hardly a consideration now...
^Weird thought - did you know Mordheim (27y/o) is only 6 years older than Infinity (21y/o)!
While certainly fine "for its time" I am looking at Mordheim in context of "what is here now" re: pick up and play gameplay, and I'd say it's direct rivals/successors are Frostgrave, 5 Leagues, and Rangers of Shadowdeep/insert Osprey campaign-game-of-the-month. Technically you could include MESBG's Battle Companies but you may not get a very unbiased opinion on the latter!
It might be interesting to list "Mordheim-a-likes" but I am a bit behind nowadays as I refuse to pay $25 for a pdf.
I approve of Warcry mechanics in principle (sans HP) but I don't think it occupies the same campaign-skirmish space. Neither is Infinity a campaign game.
Frostgrave (probably current leader) is way too swingy, is (by nature) very wizard-centric, and has somewhat limited (from my admittedly limited playtests) tactics - but it's certainly far more accessible today in delivering campaign gameplay - see my combat examples above.
-eM
I'm very well aware that you're looking at Mordheim within the context of things that only exist because of how great Mordheim was, much as how we look at Evangelion-esque shows that only exist because of how incredible and groundbreaking Evangelion was. I'm simply bringing the specific context as to WHY Mordheim was literally the greatest thing since sliced bread, and if you were to simply break out your copy of the original Necromunda rulebook and compare it with Mordheim, along with WFB 5E, it's abundantly clear.
DeleteOldhammer WFB 6E is still great, but it's sobering to think it's been 15+ years since I've been happy to play a new edition of Warhammer Fantasy (my army was relegated to the dustbin of history with AoS, so I stopped).
That said, if your major issue is Mordheim's use of WFB 6E combat resolution mechanics, that's probably the easiest thing to "fix" in a new game.
For me, it's the human warbands being a bit too samey when every other warband got so much more TLC in design and execution, with more unique rules, wargear, etc.
- GG
If you're talking Mordheim successors today, you can't leave Trench Crusade unmentioned. The dna is most obvious in the warband building and campaign systems, but wrapped around a core gameplay loop that I'm really impressed by. And the pdf rules are free.
ReplyDeleteWhen I tried TC the campaign wasn't very developed - very alpha. Given the developers - aka old Mordheim dev - I'd expect the campaign to be similar.
DeleteThanks for the reminder. I guess I'll have to reprint and retry the rules now, as I see they look a lot nicer....
https://www.trenchcrusade.com/rules/
-eM
Whenever people start discussing Mordheim, I highly recommend having a look at the Burrows & Badgers ruleset which is imho the closest 'successor' of the Mordheim theme/genre with more modern mechanics. I already know you will dislike the use of hitpoints, but unlike Frostgrave they aren't just a cosmetic pileup of tokens, but actually the model's performance slowly degrades as they get more hurt and their hitpoints decrease + there's the cool rule of a cinematic last breath activation once you're on your last hitpoints (basically you sacrifice your model which was hanging by a thread, in hope of them doing something meaningful before the opponent has the chance to finish them off). The setting is similar to Mordheim(late medieval/Tudor Britain) but with anthropomorphic animals(there's a lot of them and they can be of different factions) instead of humans and other warhammer races. There's a big list of equipment, weapons, spells etc and a large campaign focus in between battles. Stats are defined by the classic rpg polyhedral dice, so despite there being a bit higher than usual number of stats, the rolling of tests is very smooth and simple as it requires just a roll of a single die +/- any modifer and compare to either a target number or an opposed roll of the enemy. A crit (highest number on the die rolled) will always add a flat +7 making crits less frequent the better the die (d4 vs d10 for example) but will give even the feeble mouse a fighting chance against a big badger. Also on the other hand rolling poorly (a 1 on any die) will give you a fate token - a kind of karma point that you can cash in at any point during the game for a 1-time bonus when doing something (for example a re-roll). There's a lot more to like about the game, but these are just a few thing from the top of my mind.
ReplyDeleteCheers!
Miran
Great point on B&B! I keep forgetting that it exists, when it's precisely the sort of something that should be a lot more prominent.
DeleteMaybe if it were moe anthropomorphized girls with animal ears and tails a la Japari Park?
It's a total sellout strategy, but cute animal girls being cute has unlimited sales potential. Give them guns and power suits... Hmm..
- GG
I actually have B&B!
DeleteI maybe could grudgingly accept hitpoints (I would play Necropolis despite them) but the models are really expensive in Australia.
My kids were only mildly interested and the $$$ minis are not very useful outside their niche, unlike my recent Fireforge Undead Peasants which will work for about 3 current projects...
-eM
If you already have the rulebook then you're pretty much good to go (do you have the 2nd edition which was released last year?). I do adore the official sculpts, they are a true joy to paint and handle, but I understand they're not suitable for everyone's budget (especially once the shipping fees get added). But I belive the listed profiles to be so versatile, the game can easily be adapted to any other setting if anthropomorphic animals aren't that exciting for someone. There's also an undead faction in the new edition so even the 'spooky' unnatural types aren't off limits. Or just making up your own profiles isn't that hard either. I think combining your 'The Forest' setting (which sounds pretty cool btw, I would totally play that) and then cherry picking the mechanics from Mordheim and B&B to make some kind of mix could turn out to be a very fun game.
DeleteCheers!
Miran
I'll dig out BB again. Based on comments I also need to reprint and read the new Trench Crusade. I've been itching to get some WW1 troops and if I go WA I can kitbash them with medieval stuff...
DeleteI think I might go some sort of d12 but kinda borrow from d20 D&D (sped up and sans hitpoints), for no real reason except I would like to experiment with simplifying RPG rules.
-eM
I think this could be a pretty nifty solo-game as well.
ReplyDelete-Eric Farrington
Once you add up weapons, armor, equipment, magic, skills, and soldier-specific stuff (wall runner, absolute faith, etc) - I'm pretty sure Mordheim has MORE special rules than SoBaH. And then nine stats to two!
ReplyDeleteLove those demons!
"Once you add up weapons, armor, equipment, magic, skills, and soldier-specific stuff (wall runner, absolute faith, etc) - I'm pretty sure Mordheim has MORE special rules than SoBaH. And then nine stats to two!"
Delete--Maybe?
Sure, the base SoBH had about 30 skills, but with only 2 stats struggled to describe fantasy miniatures. There was only 2 spells, from memory! Sure it was 'simpler' but... at what cost?
However, once you bought the wilderness supplement, the campaign supplement and the dungeon supplement (each with +30 extra rules) you're approaching ~120 special rules. If a self-proclaimed 'fast play, elegant system' compares in special rules with a gluggy old-school WFB adaption....
The lack of stats ARE the problem in SoBH. Just a split to missile/melee/defence or something would've added so much description - especially in fantasy where humans are not always the norm - compared to historicals...
-eM
In theory your critique of SoBH makes sense, but in practice it's just not true... for me.
DeleteMaybe because SoBH was my "first love" of indie skirmish games (it's how I discovered Ganesha), but it has never disappointed me. It just works. In fact, *basic* SoBH is the one that works, the Advanced version never felt necessary to me. And I'm put off by Andrea Sfiligoi's made up lore for it, it feels amateurish and not needed... to me this is a game engine, not a setting.
All of your arguments against it make theoretical sense, but in practice, for me... It's Just Fun (tm).
There's no law against bad taste , or even questionable taste. It's perfectly fine to like things out of sentimental nostalgia, tradition, early exposure, or simple personal whim - not unlike fond memories of one's first girlfriend.
DeleteBut we should also be aware that subjective preferences aren't the same as objective reality. SoBH has more mechanical system complexity than alternatives, which is objectively bad for new players.
- GG
What do you mean, "bad taste"?
DeleteThere's no such thing as "objective" in games, except for the most trivial assertions.
What I'm saying is that SoBH works better than most alternatives, given its scope and design goals, and it succeeds at being fun.
It is NOT "objectively bad for new players". That is a nonsensical claim.
If you defend emotionally, I think you implicitly admit bad taste. 😜
DeleteObvectively, if SoBH has more total special rules than Mordheim, then it's more difficult for a new player to master. It may work well for you, but I certainly wouldn't suggest higher complexity for a new player.
While that might be a superficial conclusion based on a trivial comparison point, it's still based on an objective measure, no?
- GG
> If you defend emotionally, I think you implicitly admit bad taste
DeleteThat's such a wild leap! I mentioned my history with it as anecdote. The salient point is that it's a super simple, beginner friendly game that plays fast and requires very little looking at the rulebook during gameplay.
> Obvectively, if SoBH has more total special rules than Mordheim
Maybe. Let's do a count. But even if it was true, your conclusion is a non sequitur. It doesn't follow that more special rules make it a more complex game than Mordheim; given than once you build the warranty, you just have to keep a low number of rules in your head, and the gameplay is tremendously simple, this means playing it is easier.
Number of rules != actual complexity (not alone, anyway).
Given the wild success I've seen with SoBH and complete newbies -- my experience, not a theoretical extrapolating -- I bet you with complete confidence the majority of newbies will find it easier than Mordheim. Like, it's not even a close contest.
Good lord, "the warranty". I meant of course "the warband". Blogger + autocorrect is a deadly combination.
DeleteOk, sorry, I was mistaken, and you're not emotionally invested or getting defensive at all, as evidenced by the lack of charged language in your replies.
DeleteWhile I never claimed that rules volume was the only or best measure of complexity and learning effort, I still think it's one of the more obvious metrics that's readily available.
As for your wager, I doubt we will get a chance to test it, so I'll just leave things where they are.
- GG
> Ok, sorry, I was mistaken, and you're not emotionally invested or getting defensive at all, as evidenced by the lack of charged language in your replies.
DeleteYou told me I had bad taste and went on a half-assed rant about ex girlfriends, but is my language that is "charged". And you act surprised if I react to your comment?
Own up to your mistake, don't hide behind passive aggressive language. Read my first comment, it was pretty measured.
I just said SoBH is less complex than Mordheim, and is in fact perfect for beginners. I base this on actually seeing beginners deal with it, not out of some theoretical position like you.
I didn't create SoBH so why would I get defensive about it?
Also, consider this: this blog, while very interesting, is not representative of the broader wargaming community. It's a microcosm that reinforces non-standard opinions such as "SoBH is too difficult because it has too many special rules", which looks theoretically sound on first sight, but flies in the face of the evidence of actual people playing this games.
DeleteSo let's not confuse "opinions in Delta Vector" with "objective reality". These are just opinions, there's nothing objective about them. It usually helps to avoid accusing others readers of having bad taste?
Maybe an honest, non sarcastic apology is in order?
As above, I would prefer not to engage with you if you are super defensive and hyper emotional, reading negative intent ("rant") where there was none.
Delete- GG
I gave you a graceful out (I mean, how hard is it to apologize?). You didn't take it and preferred to continue with the passive aggressive stance. That tells me all I need to know about you. Thanks!
DeletePlease confine yourselves to addressing the "assertion" in either OP or comments rather than accusing others of bad taste or emotions or elicit an emotional response. It's pretty hard to magically guess someone's intent/emotions through typed word. I know my Aussie sarcasm does not translate well culturally at all..... :-/
Delete(I personally hope everyone assumes I am discussing things in an abstracted, nerdy way, kinda playing devil's advocate to explore the topic rather than scoring internet points etc)
Assertions are things like:
"Mordheim has MORE special rules than SoBaH."
"The lack of stats ARE the problem in SoBH."
"SoBH has more mechanical system complexity than alternatives, which is objectively bad for new players."
"SoBH is less complex than Mordheim, and is in fact perfect for beginners."
These are the sort of statements that can be discussed and reasons given for or against (preferably having tried or owned the rules!) in which personal experience is perfectly valid.
-eM