This time the Tau are back. After being captured last mission, the luckless Pathfinder scouts are being readied by Flayed Ones who hunger for their meat-flesh - and to use their skins as nifty suits.
A rescue is mounted; this time with more hard hitting firepower; two stealth suits (one with plasma); a railgun scout, and two rifles swapped in for carbines to add range. A bonus two gun drones are added free (Dad wanted to test drone rules), along with a Kroot to allow some melee - and cos the kids thought it looked cool (an excellent reason.)
The drones just move along with a Tau orbiting within a base length; and add two TN5 shots; they can also be used as 'cover' - shots which miss because of the drone, hit the drone. I.e. let's say it is TN 6 to hit a Tau, but it is reduced to a TN4 for -2 cover by the drone. Any rolls of 1-4 hit the Tau, and any 5-6 (the original TN) hit the drone.
You can see the downed scouts being guarded by scarabs and Flayed Ones in the left top building.The Flayed Ones, ritual interrupted, make a beeline for the disgusting meat-flesh intruders. The railgun Pathfinder smashes the first one with a critical hit - with a TN of 7 he rolled exactly a 7. The railgun has -5 to enemy saves and double damage, so the Flayed One must make 4 saves at 9 -5 = 4 or less. He only saves 3 (two for the crit of 4, plus the 3) so he is downed. As he is not overkilled, he may resurrect later...
The Kroot fires across the board and knocks down another Flayed One (a special kind of pin/suppression that is harder to shrug off). Another Flayed One sneaks up on him but is downed by a hail of fire by the nearby Tau warrior+gun drone. In the next turn the Kroot uses his action to permanently finish off the twitching Necron, to stop it resurrecting.At this point, my daughter has taken over the Tau. With the pin slowing it down, the Flayed One cannot make it into melee range. In almost the exact same spot as its compatriot, the railgun scout perched on the building smashes it again. It takes crits and excess damage - beyond its formidable resurrection abilities - and is also removed.
A chittering swarm of Scarabs flies into a Stealth Suit which was flanking to the side. After a lot of ineffectual firing, the Stealth Suit finally downs its second wound (swarms get an extra wound) with a punch (despite having 1 roll to 3 in melee). The swarm self destructs!
...ineffectually and anticlimatically I might add. My daughter is as lucky in her rolls as my son is unlucky. We are all a little disappointed as we thought robot exploding bugs were cinematic, but she was relieved her favoured female Tau was unhurt (I have headswapped a few token girl heads into most of my factions)...
But my daughter was yet to fully demonstrate her luck powers. Until a Stealth Suit who was moving to lay down overwatch (as denoted by the green token) near the fallen scouts stumbled into some Necron Warriors dad brought on as reinforcements (can't make it too easy for 'em)....
After downing the first Necron to move into view with an overcharged unstable plasma blast (any '12' and the damage is applied to the plasma wielder) the Stealth Suit lacked actions to defend against the second. So the Necron had two shots strike home - both crits - for double damage. She needed 4 saves of TN7 (1-7 on d12) to survive!
...She passed all the rolls and then aced (critical success) a Willpower test to avoid being pinned/suppressed! My son, spectating, said "Come onnnn!" in disgust. "How did she survive that?"
PART 2
The game being truncated for bed-time, today my son is at tennis so the girl is at the helm of the Tau again. Her first Fire Warrors are almost arriving to rescue/check the vitals of the downed Scouts. Who knows what vile experiments the Flayed Ones had been doing with them?
With most of the threats down, she briskly moves up her forces and puts some on hold (overwatch - green token) to cover any Necrons that might emerge from the table edge.
Just in time, as Dad, bored by the lull, has brought on a few Necron warriors, who were summoned to deal with the meatbag intruders!
The Stealth Suits do good work. The Plasma armed one downs its target. The minigun one opts to reposition (move up to base length/pivot) and thus gets to spool up its gun, emptying four shots through a window, pinning the second Necron. (A pin is caused by non-penetrating hits, then failing a subsequent Will test - the model then loses its free move and must either move or shoot - not both).
Meanwhile, the rescuers have got both Pathfinders up. One rolls a crit on their recovery roll and bounds up in time to take a shot at a Necron Warrior. (He misses - would've been cinematic though!)
The round ends with my daughter starting to move everyone back, while adjusting the positioning of the big damage hitters (railgun snipers -5, stealth suit plasma -8 overcharge shot) to prepare to down the Defence 12 Wraith. She plans to create an evac point (out of Necron LoS) to pull them off the board more rapidly, and perhaps tar-pit (slow) the Wraith by sacrificing the Kroot into melee with it. A Fire Warrior created an evac point with its action. She prepared to rush her team through and out. But first, the Pathfinder sniper from the previous game (the one who had to be revived twice, then rescued in this mission) redeemed himself. He scored a crit on the terrifying wraith and with lethal crit and double wound special traits he ripped through its exoskeleton.
Tau were quickly streaming out the evac point while the enemies were out of LoS (if in line of sight, evac is not automatic but requires an Agility roll).
Three more Necron warriors arrived. With so many Tau having evacuated, they not longer had fire superiority.
My daughter forgot to finish off the wraith and to her horror I tried to resurrect it on a TN of 7. Luckily for her it was an 8. Twitching, the ghostly horror sank back, permanently inert. Whew!
Unfortunately the heroic sniper now paid with his life. A Necron scored two crits! Coruscating green lightening turned him into an ashy outline on the wall. A Kroot, fading towards the exit, took a sneaky overwatch shot from cover, avenging his ally by taking down an advancing Necron.
But the Necrons stalked forward remorselessly. The Kroot and a Pathfinder sniper were the last remaining.
The sniper covered the Kroot's escape - he took out another Necron with his powerful rail sniper. Unfortunately as it is a heavy weapon it cannot move and shoot...
The heroic last stand ended as the sniper was cut down by green energy blasts. A cinematic finale!The game ended with one Tau being rescued, the other killed, and two other casualties being taken in the attempt. Total Necron deaths - a bit hazy, but from memory: a scarab swarm, 3 flayed ones, a handful or so Necron warriors and the luckless wraith, victim of a 1 in 12 crit.
My daughter wasn't sure she had won - she accomplished her mission - rescue the Pathfinders - but lost one, and took some other casualties in the process. I reassured her this was pretty par for the course for military operations...
Possible Rules Changes:
1.Should pinned models be able to react? Perhaps if they pass a Will check? After all, the pin just removes the free move. Daughter suggestion.
2.Should you be able to dodge forward into melee? Currently you can't. And if you can, how does it work? (I'm working on a rule for my Khorne beserkers but should this 'counter-charge' be a universal rule or limited to certain models/factions) Daughter suggestion.
3.I may tone down the Wraith in melee: 3 x -7 hits are pretty much autokill. In fact, review the methods used to generate melee damage. Dad musing.
4.I may also need to do a balance pass in how I convert Defence (combined toughness+armour save) from 40K. Currently I have Toughness 3 = Defence 5. Any toughness over this is +1 each level i.e. a Toughness 5 model would be Defence 5+2 = 7. Then I add armour saves - a 6 is +1, a 5-6 is +2, a 4-6 is a +3 etc.
Finally I have a rough scale for wounds. The maximum wounds I have is 2, so 2 wounds is just the extra wound and no defence bonus. 3 wounds is +1 defence, 4 wounds is +2, 5 wounds is +3 etc. However some really big models have really big wound numbers.... It's probably just the effect that stats balanced for fighting squads of 5-10 means monsters are pretty overtuned/OP in a 1:1 melee game. Dad musing.
Next time I'd like to look at adding grenades, flamers and AoE weapons. But I am prone to distraction and my son is asking for 15mm tanks & mechs vs wizards sci fi rules - my working title is "Wizards of Mars". It's an interesting challenge as the rules have to be slick enough to easily/quickly handle vehicles and fire teams of infantry AND magic spells. So the rules will be very simple and 'pared back' so I can add another layer (magic) without slowing things down too much....
My thoughts:
ReplyDelete1. Follow best practices from Infinity a la Immobilized-A vs Immobilzed-B, and have Pinned-A where they can perform limited reactions at penalty vs Pinned-B where they can't under hair-splitty circumstances.
2. dodging into melee - is that 'assaulting through'? Regardless, yes. It's a smart tactic to dodge fire by engaging the enemy so they are afraid to cause 'friendly fire'.
3. Why shouldn't a Wraith autokill a weedy Tau in CC? That seems perfectly fair to me. Compare with an Ork Nob or Space Marine, esp. Primaris and/or Terminator. What is your game scaled for? Is a Wraith an Ogre / Ogryn / Krootox? Should the Tau not be penalized severely for not bringing Kroot to handle close combat duties?
4. No comment on conversion, as it's a question of 'feel' more than anything else.
5. Consider a scale of wounds as having 2 steps between unharmed and dead: grazed vs. crippled. This allows for a double-sided wound token to cleanly display status.
Good luck!
- GG
It's my attempt to have my kids enjoy an Infinity-esque reaction game without its annoyances and complication.
Delete1.I really want to avoid tokens cluttering the table.
Currently only "hold" and "pinned", a wound (for heroes asnd monsters only) and tipping the model on its side (downed - not necessarily dead - removed is 'dead' dead); plus an out of ammo I haven't needed yet. \
I'm considering a "knocked down" which I suppose is a kinda unfixable "Suppression B" for hits with big guns...
We considered allowing a Will check to react when suppressed, but maybe a -2 like when troops are in the rear 180 is quicker to avoid an extra roll.
2. Dodge to melee - maybe reserve for melee/centric minis? Though I suppose units poor at melee like weedy Tau won't be wanting to dodge to melee anyway.
3. Maybe. I think it may be an issue of scale i.e. a wraith in 40k faces 5-10 man squads so it feels OP (fairly enough I suppose) in close quarters of a 1:1 skirmish style game....
5. I'm trying to avoid "everyone gets wounds" as its another status to track. All 1 wound models in 40K have 1 wound. All multiple wound models have 2 maximum (extra wounds just + to the defence save).
Sure, wounds add flavour (well, if they do something like halve movement etc) but I'm against giving more record keeping/tokens to everyone. If only a few models have it, it makes it special/notable.
I want to be able to play game above in an hour (it took us more like 1.5+ but we took photos, kids discussed among themselves, etc)
-eM
WRT finishing in an hour, how many elites and grunts per side? Maybe you've got too many models for that? If the Wraith alone is supposed to be a match for a squad, like a Dreadnought, then the Necron player shouldn't have more than a handful of grunts and a leader if it's a skirmish.
DeleteThat is, I look at weight like this:
1. human grunt
2. human elite (Space Marine) / Swarm
3. Space Marine elite / Ogre / Ogryn
6. Dreadnought / Monster
10. Dragon / Greater Daemon / Large Monster
Anything bigger than an Ogryn is iffy in a skirmish game, because you aren't guaranteed to have a counter, so balance is very tricky.
Anyhow, back to the points:
1. If you're going to have tokens, define a half dozen total with clear and distinctive effects, and tie them to Universal Special Rules. Consider going back to RT/40k2 Psychology.
2. Fleeing into melee is still better than getting cut down by automatic weapons and artillery. Assume that the Tau would use hand flamers in lieu of power fists.
5. I agree on grunts at 1 wound, but you may need more than 2 wounds for large models, if you're going to use them. IIRC, 40k now has dozens of wounds for supersize models, and they would probably be best served by hit boxes...
- GG
Hit boxes! Do you know which blog you are on! LOL!
DeleteOn a more serious note, I often think about what my game is trying to do different from the other games on the market. What is the unique "Hook"? What do you think is the unique Hook to d12 Infinity? Is it enough to justify another game, or does it fall under the concept of "We don't need aother Warhammer?"
- Eric Farrington
Huh using wedges causes this to disappear?
DeleteAnyway, I was trying to say that I know your goal is to have fun games with yoru kids. However, other folks read this blog intending to do more than that.
- EF
"Hit boxes! Do you know which blog you are on! LOL!"
Delete......Someone gets it. :-)
"What is the unique "Hook"? What do you think is the unique Hook to d12 Infinity? Is it enough to justify another game, or does it fall under the concept of "We don't need aother Warhammer?"
....A game that allows me to use ANY of my sci fi 28mm in a reactive style game (a la Infinity) that uses limited reactions+alternate movement vs IGOUGO+unlimited reactions. It allows quasi RPG if needed, has reasonable generic stats (30 not 100+)
Hook: Kill Team, but Infinity - What if you wanted a smoother playing Infinity-style you actually could remember the rules to/teach a kid, which allowed you to easily adapt your 40K collection?
The only think that plays similarly (activation wise) are maybe BLKOUT which is a simpler game that does not have the stats to allow story/telling/RPGing/easy adaption to 40K and other games.
The stats are less punishing than Infinity (lethality between that and 40K) - you actually can survive shots.
It's more a "better Infinity" than a "better 40K" as the latter is pretty easy to do with commercial rules...
-eM
Remember, I only make games myself when there's nothing commercially available that suits me, hence my supercavitating subs, aeronef, demon possessed space hulk, magic centric non Vietnam 15mm platoon, etc etc.
Delete-eM
I am fully aware, just not dogmatically opposed to Igo-Ugo or hitboxes. An Ork Stompa has 30 wounds, so a 6x5 grid is a clear visual aid.
DeleteA cleaner Infinity is a good idea. The models are great, but I won't juggle 6 flavors of deep strike
- GG
--"A cleaner Infinity is a good idea. The models are great, but I won't juggle 6 flavors of deep strike "
Delete--Pretty much why I'm doing it. I wanted to play Infinity with my kids, but tested N5 and went "no way I am relearning this+teaching to kids" and at the same time I found... a few hundred various 40K minis so I was: "What if I simplified Infinity, removed the annoying bits, made the activation less gamey and set the math up to mimic 40K for 40K units?"
I'm not dogmatically opposed to hitboxes, just on things that seem stupid - like humans - / hitboxes that have no effect.
I am pretty much 100% against IGOUGO - if we are trying to make games fluid/interactive, it's literally the least fluid or interactive option among sooo many better options.... the genre would really really need to use it for some specific reason...
-eM
Ok, sure. Just recognize that some flavor of Igo-Ugo is clearly optimal for large mass battle games. Apocalypse scale 3+ vs. 3+ 40k games would bog down under the overhead of the alternatives.
DeleteIt's clear and simple, let's everyone maximize play with all of their toys, minimize total downtime.
Could you even imagine waiting for 5+ other players to do their thing with one model at a time before you get to move just one of yours as the vast majority of everyone's armies sit idle? Especially when at least half of them are too far away to affect you at all!
- GG
...."Apocalypse scale 3+ vs. 3+ 40k games would bog down under the overhead of the alternatives. "
DeleteI'm confident apocalypse scale 40K is already hopelessly bogged down no matter how you activate. I'd say a completely new system is needed. If I had to invent a name for this system, I'd probably call it "Epic" 40K ;-)
...but sure, large battle games are outside my scope. If anyone wants to paint hundreds of glorified hitmarkers, they are welcome to IGOUGO with them.....
More seriously, I'm not a fan of the 'now normal' alternate movement (Chess style) for melee-based games. I feel you need to be able to move clumps of forces in groups (shieldwalls etc) unlike shooting-centric games say WW2 where smaller units exchanging fire makes sense.
Rather than pure IGOUGO, it's be probably best based around leaders (aka Two Fat Lardies Big Men or MESBG heroic moves).
-eM
I've played a number of Apocalypse games, and the 40k Igo-Ugo engine moves huge numbers of points relatively well due to the things getting done in parallel. It can actually play FASTER than regular 40k due to Superheavy point sinks condensing action into fewer total models. Apocalypse used to be the exclusive domain for superheavies, the only chance to really play them.
Delete- GG
"It's more a "better Infinity" than a "better 40K" as the latter is pretty easy to do with commercial rules.." Just out of curiosity, which commercial rules do you think of and which 40k edition(s) do they do better?
ReplyDeleteBetter 40K is incredibly common as pretty much anyone who invents rules started with 'make 40K better.'
DeleteBasically anything by a competent indie dev that isn't IGOUGO; you've even got the Nordic Weasel oldHammer RT/2ndE ripoffs already?
I played a bit of Clash on the Fringe back in the day (but now I can't find my copy and I am NOT paying $25 for a pdf); freebies like FAD, FUBAR, and if you are interested in more realistic space-nam, Stargrunt of the freebies are all proper games.
I tended towards 15mm sci fi as it is vastly more affordable AND looks better on the table (i.e. gun ranges actually look normal and vehicles don't look ridiculous on a tabletop). But rules like Tomorrow's War while aimed at 15mm work for 28mm fine.
I'm not a fan of the RPG-y games like Stargrave or 5 Parsecs as its more about the campaign and the gameplay is pretty meh. Xenos Rampant looked too generic. OPR were simpler not necessarily better.
The minis are crap but the Mantic rules are (imo) much better than the GW ones when I tested them (admittedly a while back) - Deadzone, Firefight, etc etc.
That's just as casual reply off the top of my head. I'm sure I could do a better dig through my rules collection.
-eM
Ivan (Nordic Weasel) used to be around a lot in the old days. Haven't caught crossed paths with him for ages though.
Deletehttps://deltavector.blogspot.com/2015/03/recommended-good-free-wargames-rules.html
Here are some more rules write ups of freebies, with Ivan nominating half....
-eM
Did you enjoy playing "Clash on the Fringe". I think I bought it based on your good review on this blog. I am little bit irritated by the Nordic Weasel publishing strategy of publishing a lot of very similar games (e.g. RT clone, 2nd edition clone 1, 2nd edition clone 2) instead of improving on one system.
DeleteI noticed that there are 3-4 Nordic Weasel games fulfilling the same design space/role. I.e. if there was a 2nd ed scale and an Epic scale wargame it makes sense. Rather than 3-4 versions of 2nd ed.
DeleteActually, if it is 3-4 different sets of mechanics I find it more interesting than the same thing over and over i.e. using the same mechanics for 10 different genres "x-grave, x-rampant, song of x" which is usual for indie games.
I've kinda given up on indie wargames recently as $30AUD for a barely proofread pdf is the same price as some physical rulebooks, or a cheaper boardgame, or even a PC game.
I was looking for Clash on the Fringe a while back for my 15mm but I've lost my copy and am not buying another. Hence "space wizards of mars..." I'm making for my son.
I can make a quick set of functional home rules in an hour and while I prefer to buy off the shelf I enjoy being ripped off even less...
-eM
Had to delete a post as it was published by accident during writing. Writing on the phone sucks.
ReplyDeleteJust wanted to thank you for the overview. I have studied a few of these rulesets but never played any. As I grew up with 2nd edition, I am specifically looking for this mixture of wargame and RPG. I also had the feeling that the number of miniatures on the table felt right during 2nd edition. With 3rd edition, I had the impression that tables became more crowded. Therefore, I would also prefer smaller scales for larger engagements (15mm or even lower).
15mm is great for platoon scale. Really easy and fun to paint sci fi. I had a huge craze for 15mm a few times (see Sept 2011 blog posts, and Nov 2021; or search 15mm, GZG, Tomorrow's War).
DeleteIt's the best scale if you plan to use vehicles and infantry together as the infantry are still recognizable and cool enough and vehicles are sensibly sized.
If you are in Europe I'd warmly recommend
https://shop.groundzerogames.co.uk/
or if USA
https://www.khurasanminiatures.com/
Postage to Oz killed metal 15mm for me. It cost the same as the minis!
Sci fi 15mm is also super fun to paint. You always go a few shades brighter than usual and its sooo much easier than boring modern/WW2 camo. There are also proxy 40K/Starship Troopers etc in 15mm if you look.
I found the smallest sci fi scales (6mm/1:300/1:285) just not cool to look at - exception is 10mm of Dropzone Commander (a good game, good minis, pricey)
If you want 2nd ed/RT 40K, Nordic Weasel specifically aims for oldhammer ripoffs with Rogue/Renegade Hammer/Squad - there's a few - I forgot the exact names - are a homage to them, but a lot more modern - i.e. they go for the old skool vibe but not the messy rules.
-eM
For futuristic RPG large skirmish, 40k2 and Infinity are good mainstream choices, but you might just adapt a regular RPG directly.
DeleteMilitary wargaming is well supported at 15mm (1/100), looks really great on the tabletop; however, microarmor (1/285) is the traditional scale and there's no shortage of higher detail rulesets for that! The catch is that the player base starts in their early 60s and goes up from there. I think it goes the way of classic 54mm (1/32) tin soldiers.
- GG
@eM
Delete“15mm is great for platoon scale. Really easy and fun to paint sci fi. I had a huge craze for 15mm a few times (see Sept 2011 blog posts, and Nov 2021; or search 15mm, GZG, Tomorrow's War).
It's the best scale if you plan to use vehicles and infantry together as the infantry are still recognizable and cool enough and vehicles are sensibly sized.”
I agree. That´s why I have basically every WW2 vehicle for Germany and Russia in 15mm except for early war. 28mm tanks are very huge for gaming pieces.
I have investigated 15mm Sci fi due to your enthusiasm for it on this blog, but since I am more interested into the 40k style Science Fantasy, they mostly looked too bland. Maybe I need to revisit them again. I am on the fence of “Legions Imperials”, e.g. Epic30k, but my tank itch is already covered by WW2.
“If you want 2nd ed/RT 40K, Nordic Weasel specifically aims for oldhammer ripoffs with Rogue/Renegade Hammer/Squad - there's a few - I forgot the exact names - are a homage to them, but a lot more modern - i.e. they go for the old skool vibe but not the messy rules.”
I sometimes wonder whether the messy rules made the game more exciting. I remember reading the rules for “Clash on the fringe”, they did not excite any interest in me to play the game. I had the same problem with “Renegade Scout”, where I wasn´t able to finish the rulebook at all. I think I will revisit the original 2nd edition rules first before thinking about alternatives to check whether everything is just nostalgia and rose tinted glasses or still an exciting game.
@GG
“For futuristic RPG large skirmish, 40k2 and Infinity are good mainstream choices, but you might just adapt a regular RPG directly.”
I was also thinking about using RPG rules for story-heavy wargaming. This blog was a heavy inspiration due to the articles about Savage Worlds. Maybe “Stars without Numbers” would be an option.
“Military wargaming is well supported at 15mm (1/100), looks really great on the tabletop; however, microarmor (1/285) is the traditional scale and there's no shortage of higher detail rulesets for that! The catch is that the player base starts in their early 60s and goes up from there. I think it goes the way of classic 54mm (1/32) tin soldiers.”
The GHQ 1/285 tank models look great, but the infantry seems very tiny. I am not sure whether I would have fun painting them. I am also already heaviy invested in 15mm, so another scale does not seem like a good option.
Practically speaking, 1/100 vs 1/285 or 1/144 is all in the same family,. So you can just scale distance up/down as appropriate. If you're already 15mm, that's great, and you can check out other rules for inspiration.
Delete- GG
When I say a "Better Warhammer 40K" that is just my short hand for recreating something that is all ready on the market. I.e. we don't need another Warhammer 40K because it all ready exists.
ReplyDeleteUntil you pointed it out, I all ready assumed there was a better Sci-Fi action/reaction game out there. However, when I try to think of it I can only come up with Tomorrow's War and that is not really meant for Super-soldiers vs. Super-Aliens.
- Eric Farrington
BLKOUT has reactions and a similar flow/feel to my d12 rules but it is even faster and simpler with no RPG-y aspects; but its near future sci fi (i.e. think Elysium/District 9) with very abstract weapons and gear.
DeleteIf something existed I'd be using it as I tend to reinvent the wheel only when required!
-eM
In my experience, RPG rules make for a terrible wargaming experience and vice versa.
ReplyDeleteAs an example, West End Games used to make a great Star Wars d6 based RPG that I still play. They also made a wargame using the same basic rules. However, the wargame is so clunky that it is almost unplayable even though it uses the same system.
I have a review of those West End rules somewhere on my blog if you want to see the details.
- Eric Farrington
"n my experience, RPG rules make for a terrible wargaming experience and vice versa."
Delete^^This.
The only reason I use SW is because it WAS originally a wargame I played (Rail Wars) that was turned into a RPG. (It's actually similar mechanics to Stargrunt/Tomorrow's War) and I find it easy to just reverse the process and strip out the RPG bits, leaving me with a bunch of useful toolkit of spells/traits etc I can use if needed without too much playtesting.
Generally, RPG rules are crap. And RPG-centric wargames (x-grave, 5-thingies) tend to be pretty bland wargames.
-eM
If someone actually wants a high detail large skirmish combat game, something like 40k2 or esp. D&S 3E is not a bad starting point. Particularly as D&D started out as a Heroes supplement for Chainmail 25mm wargaming, so it's coming back full circle.
Delete- GG